Inside Media: Washington's 'Media Industrial Complex'

Inside Media: Washington's 'Media Industrial Complex'



good afternoon ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the newseum night TV studio and another edition of inside media I'm your host John Maynard program manager here at the newseum well to all those visiting from out of town today welcome to Washington DC or as will call it from here on out this town that is also the name of the new much too buzzed about book which just hit number one on the New York Times bestseller list and it's written by our guest today mark leibovich chief national correspondent for the New York Times Magazine so what is this town well here's just a few ways that mark described Washington America's most powerful prosperous and disappointing city suck up City a grimy ecosystem and my favorite a spinning stew of human need so we'll talk about some of those phrases later mark has covered Washington for the past 16 years he joined the new york times in 2006 as a national political correspondent before moving to the magazine prior to the New York Times mark wrote about national politics for the Washington Post's beginning in 1997 and prior to coming to Washington mark wrote for the san jose mercury news and the Boston Phoenix and I should also add that mark resides with his wife and three daughters right here in this town so please welcome mark leibovich mark let's let's start with a maybe the obvious question how do you define this town where is it and who populate sit it's a very good question actually people don't ask it enough i mean this town refers to what is known as official Washington official Washington is the part that incorporates you could live the political class politicians staffers lobbyists journalists hangers-on a lot of the people that you see on television members of what I also call the club it does not include the the many many perhaps majority of people actually the majority of people in this city who actually lived out in Gaithersburg or PG County or parts of Virginia who are some of them are quite poor some of them are not as wealthy as the club and this is now statistically the wealthiest metropolitan area in the United States it's home to seven of the wealthiest ten counties in the United States many of these people who live in these counties into these areas are part of this town however not everyone is so that's an important distinction right i should note that the subtitle of the book is two parties in a funeral plus plenty of valet parking and America's Gilded capital tell us which funeral you are referring to and what you witnessed there and what that scene really says about Washington yeah no sure the funeral was Tim Russert be the beloved newsman who died in the in the prime of his life in June of 2008 his old offices actually upstairs as I end and it's it was a group I thought a very defining moment in the in the life of this town I mean Tim Russert was a giant he was beloved he was really the mayor of official Washington he was at the Nexus of media of politics of the money class he was really probably the most powerful journalist in town than I think he was and suddenly he's gone at the dawn of a campaign that going to be historical at the dawn of a economy that was about to just crater at the dawn of the historic election and frankly at the dawn of this anarchy in the peanut gallery that has I think to find the recent few years in media in politics with the rise of Twitter with the rise of Facebook with the rise of things like Politico and a lot of the new media entities that have now sort of i don't know if it's filled the vacuum the tim russert left because i think this would have happened anyway but i did see that as a good jumping-off point and frankly this this event at the Kennedy Center was this state funeral like thing where you had all the all the tribes there the Clintons and the Obamas and the McClain's and the Democrats and the Republicans and the journalists and the hangers ons and the staffers and the people who have always been here and I sort of was amazed that the scene just just regenerated into a cocktail party basically you had people sort of passing out business cards in the aisles you had people sort of competing to be on the eulogy program you had all manner of people working it at what was ostensibly a mournful occasion so I thought that was a great jumping-off point both as a way to introduce a lot of the recurring characters in the book but also to sort of set us in place and time the chronology of the book goes from June of 2008 through President Obama's second inauguration last January so that was the funeral talking about it goes on for the prologue in the first chapter and there's another funeral later but we can talk okay I'm wondering if thats being there at the funeral seeing all this business cards being handed out did that put in your mad mind that I'm going to run I have a book on my actually it's interesting I I knew that something was happening in Washington I thought that this city especially this town part of the city had reached a tipping point of self celebration at a time and really self-absorption at a time in which the rest of the country was quite frankly very disappointed in what was going on here both major parties the media just in Washington has been you know sort of it's been been running against Washington for years but I think that this was a moment I wanted to sure and I did start taking notes in my program but I mean the bulk of my reporting on this was retroactive and debriefing people and what they what they experience their saw there and so now we're always hearing from the punditry that and others the washington is hopefully hopelessly divided but you disagree with that notion tell us why well I mean I think division is what people see on TV division is frankly how Congress and the Senate how government plays out but in fact Washington is hopelessly interconnected it is a city of one political class there is there's a saying that I quote in here there's no such thing as Democrats and Republicans these days it's millionaires it's Democrats and Republicans actually going into business together either as lobbyists or is bipartisan consulting firms or or as people shouting at each other on TV and sometimes they'll take that act on the road and get paid I mean in the case of Terry McAuliffe and EDD Gillespie two former party chairman who met in a green room where became friends in the green room now have taken their act on the road I don't not as much recently because Terry is running for governor of Virginia but you know they're getting 50 grand a pop to do this dog and pony show and Robert Gibbs has done this with Karl Rove and Haley Barbour has done this with with McAuliffe Annette it's just it's part of the larger racket in which i mean frankly division is good for business it's good for Washington it's not necessarily it's not good for the country right and you write that you know Washington this is your quote like high school used to be a transient culture people would expect to graduate eventually or drop out but almost no one ever leaves here anymore yeah that is true I mean look I mean the cliche about Washington being like high school it's become a cliche but it's been a metaphor that people have used for for many many generations and I think it works to a point you have a lot of class president types you have some bullies you have some nerds you have the whole the whole gamut of high school but what's changed is again people don't leave in high school use the expectation that you can you might graduate or drop out at a certain point but now I mean people all over the country especially candidates for office or repentance reelection talk about how awful washington is they run against the place as a swamp and then they settle into it like a like a warm bath and and they and they wind up settling here I mean it happens over and over and over again and look I mean this is it's their right it's the mean there's a lot of money here for them to make us former congressman former staffers or whatever but I mean it's important to note the founders envisioned public service in Washington from George Washington being the best example is something you do for a few years then you return to the farm rejoin your communities you do whatever it is you were doing and that doesn't happen anymore and so I think it's an important distinction to make and frankly I think it's not good for the country you mentioned money of course which is a reason why people do come here why they stay and you write that it's just escalated the amount of money in this area over the past ten ten years or so what's been the reason for this as you call a gold rush in Washington well it's a combination it's a combination of reasons I mean I think first of all I mean government has just grown a great deal I mean certainly starting after I mean you can debate when the actual inflection point was but but certainly 911 was a you know for a lot of probably very good reasons I mean it created a whole new cabinet department I'll then security all kinds of contracting things so government has grown over certainly over the last decade with that comes all kinds of derivative industries like consulting like contracting like you know the media pours money in here to cover this big circus and then you have things like the Obama election which was historic Hollywood sort of rediscovered Washington I don't know if they ever abandon it but there's that incredible interest in pop culture that we saw really starting in the opened the well in the Clinton administration I guess with west wing which was late in the Clinton administration but so there was a rise of that political class and yet people like James Carville and Mary Matalin who who became sort of public brands and they're basically set for life and you see what sort of had that big that new class of Apple there's other than a class of celebrity operatives but it's now but become a commodity but I I think corporate America has discovered that you really need to take to pay attention to Washington they spend billions of dollars a year trying to manipulate it trying to lobby it tourists Hollywood I mean again I mean it's a fascinating place it's also a very important place but when the entity grows I think everything around it grows let's talk about Politico it's which is mentioned throughout the book and we're at the newseum here so we've got to talk about the media what has been the impact of Politico specifically on this town sure sure well Politico is I mean for those of you not familiar with its it is a website I mean it has a print edition too but it's mostly a website that came about and I think 2006 2007 really catering in a very focused way to political junkies and their mission statement was basically we're going to do for politics what ESPN did for sports and ESPN is obviously a very very valuable brand and incredible franchise and Politico has taken hold in sort of covering politics I would say as sports I mean I think it has created a lot of excitement I think a lot of people in here read it and there's also been a lot of criticism about Politico including from yours truly that that frankly this is not sports this is real life and and having said that I mean but they have captured the velocity of this moment they have some really really good reporters they've broken a lot of stories and it sort of inescapable now if you're going to be writing about or thinking about or following politics and as a as a political junkie myself I fully admit to reading it and I think maybe they suffered because I'm so familiar with it and so their examples were readily and political I certainly has been chronicling your they have been yeah I think I mentioned there's someone said the other day they mention it they've done like 19 different stories on it or something like that every time I do it seems to and there's always often its kind of critical because I mean they I think decided early on that they were a target of this book and I don't necessarily agree with it but it's certainly a valid point maybe and maybe I mean look some have read it that way others are not but but they should have a lot of may be pre-emptive or somewhat defensive stories about it and there's always a backlash which I'm always amused by and along with with Politico I mean certainly social media I think Twitter in particular certainly has changed the dynamics of politics and sadder Washington ya know I mean it's the speed it's anyone can have a platform I mean again people used to work years to get to a point where they had a platform now anyone can sort of have a blog or Twitter feed or Facebook accountant and anyone who can get themselves on TV I mean anyone basically it seems like can get themselves on TV getting called a strategist or something I a lot of cable hours to fill and so that's part of the anarchy and the peanut gallery right we're going to get two questions in just a moment so if you do have them please raise your hand and Jim and the other staffer there will bring the microphone to you one of the largest chapters in the book is devoted to someone probably not many people have heard of Curt bar della yeah and there was actually a New York Times Sunday magazine piece excerpt from your book a couple weeks ago you write quote he activates your radar but not in a good way he laughs too much and too loud he hangs out in cigar bars you suspect you're being worked I liked them instantly why do you like them and how is he representative of this town I liked him because there was a transparency about Kurt I mean Kurt was this first of all he was abandoned as a three-month-old on the steps of a church in Seoul South Korea he was adopted family in Rochester New York he moved around he's been a stranger alienated from two or three or four fathers over the years and he came to Washington he sort of watched west wing as a kid and became captivated by the screen game I mean politics as the Hollywood version of it and he wanted to be Josh Lyman or even president Bartlet I don't know i mean he he was not so much a democrat or republican he said but an opportunist and he didn't go to college he got his ticket punched to washington by working on a congressional campaign from a Republican and around San Diego got here at age 21 or something found darrell Issa who's a Republican congressman from California who was really ascendant and darrell Issa became like a father figure to him and and and it was just quite a interesting kind of psychological transference but but Kurt was this desperately ambitious guy he wanted to be the White House press secretary and he talked about it and he put it on his facebook page and you're not supposed to talk about how ambitious you are here that's sort of one of the rules is everyone's ambitious but the key is to sort of shroud it in nonchalant sand and Kirk didn't even play that game so I appreciated his transparency and he let me follow him around and make him a character in the book it turns out he was maybe revealing too much to me and he was forwarding emails that people had sent him to me without their knowledge as a way of sort of showing me how he was spending his days and some of the more members of Congress many of more other journalists and it was a bit of a scandal he lost his job when this was revealed Politico of course did like nine million stories on it and there was a huge story I guess on capitol hill in a week where revolution had broken out in Egypt and Republicans were threatening to shut down the government and but this was deemed the most important I mean Washington what's the me and media I say so anyway Kurt so I sort of detailed that whole saga in chapter 8 and it's it's actually I mean it's pretty striking Washington story and he wound up getting his old job back after three months and there was no real fall from grace and I mean he seems pretty thrilled to be a mini celebrity based on this book but he it's um yeah so I just sort of wrote about him as a parable so the line that you'll never eat lunch in this town again doesn't really exist in Washington yeah one of the one of the working title is you will always have luncheon true I mean seriously though I mean the unemployment line in politics now is pretty short if it exists at all I mean look who's running for mayor of New York test and controller of New York and you're welcome to comment on that also if you well I mean it's amazing how this rollout of the book over the last few weeks is coincided perfectly with people making my points exactly so I'll leave it at that okay exactly rather than like turning the conversation over to Anthony Weiner which of course is always tempting that's right why don't we get some hands up and we'll get some fresh let's see one up there right there well the Mike's coming up to you let me that I just want to see one quickly about the ultimate event in this town which is the annual White House Correspondents Dinner which you talk about throughout the book Hillary Clinton had an interesting statement about the dinner which you can share we're all for the First Amendment here but do you attend that event every year what do you make of it all okay well the White House Correspondents Dinner for those of you on its this annual banquet has been held for decades since I guess the 20s or 30s president typically speaks there used to be a small sort of musty dinner the president would speak to the White House Correspondents and that would be that what has happened over the last couple decades is it's just become this huge celebrity fest people from Hollywood have come in it's no longer just a single banquet it's a five day extravaganza with pre parties and after parties and and and hospitality Suites and tens of millions of dollars spent on the political class celebrating itself with help from Hollywood and it's I don't go the new york times where work stopped going in 2007 i guess which was a year after I got there the washington post when i worked there did go so i went to a few of them but the time stopped because they just thought it was too cozy it sent the wrong message it continues and i personally I mean at risk of betraying non-objective journalistic behavior I'll say it's an abomination I think it's perverse I think it's perfectly emblematic of the political classes inability to do something to stop doing something they know is wrong they know is embarrassing they know is expensive of and yet that they just do it anyway so I have a whole chapter devoted to the 2010 White House Correspondents Dinner which coincided with the attempted bombing in times square the the oil spill in the Gulf I mean it was it was quite a time and just juxtaposing the extravaganza that the political class was was was throwing for itself at the time that these other stuff was going on so look I some people have come out against the correspondence in there Tom Brokaw most among them if I can be a voice for for anything anyone restraining themselves on this I mean I would be thrilled but I don't expect it to happen frankly but you want to do the Hillary Clinton way yeah sure yeah yeah yeah see Hillary Clinton instantly became a hero of this book I think I don't know if she intended it but in 2011 the correspondence dinner coincided with the rate of the band that weekend that was the raid of Osama there where they got Osama bin Laden and about two or three days before the weekend a very very small group of cabinet people and national security people were meeting in the situation room discussing the timing for the bin Laden raid and everyone knew it was gonna be that weekend but they didn't know exactly when and so the president was scheduled to speak at the Saturday night dinner Saturday night was raised as a possibility and so they were going around and and they said well the president supposed to be at the white house correspondents dinner so if he doesn't show up I mean people think something's up and maybe there's you know would be a little bit of a commotion and Hillary Clinton who was one of the small group who was in there looked up and I can say this right she just said the white house correspondents dinner and and that said that chapter ended and I I let's just say that no one from the Hillary Clinton campaign has complained about me using that at all so anyway that's that's the story will start up there and then we'll go over there mark to two quick questions you can answer in any order the first is for those of us who kind of agree with the supposition the book that Washington's a little incestuous what do you think the answers are to reducing that such as term limits limits on money and the second is since you know the book is for those of us went fairly accurate I think almost you know to perfection in certain ways Oh what effect do you think it will have on your reporting in the long great questions I mean I think first of all the prescription question I mean I've been asked a few times what do we do about this what what's your solution and I do I'm very conscious of not doing the chapter at the end where I say here are the ten bullet points and how we can make our capital city work better you know I'm a journalist I don't I'm sort of in the shine a mirror to a culture and hope that the people who are capable of enacting change or feeling shame can actually take it from there I'm just not that smart but I mean certainly term limits has come up certainly some kind of campaign finance thing has come up some third-party candidates something to shake up the dynamic as far as my going forward reporting I don't think it'll be an issue I mean I think look some people do not like how they have been portrayed in here it doesn't surprise me I mean this is a city where everyone is obsessed with their own public image then a guy like me comes along from inside the club and rights may be an alternative story so it's made some people uncomfortable but I frankly welcome it and I think that Washington has become a very very comfortable city and you know I can handle the how dare he's which I guess there's been a chorus of how dare use but it's fine i will get to your question a second but it has been the reaction they have you been walking down the street and someone's come up there been a couple of from people in the book hair share number no I better not well these are these are private discussion now but there's been some emails but look I mean no one's really disputed the accuracy of anything no one's disputed any of them points and the dirty little secret is everyone sort of loves a winner right so if people are start talking about it and they see that the book is doing well and getting reviewed well they'll think all right I can embrace this too and so you know the left and the right is trying to like take this book as their own manifesto whatever I mean look I I it's a very own ID I very untidy illogical I think the book is very nonpartisan I think it's sort of a in the vein of a pox on not so much both your houses but just this whole ecosystem that's grown up here sure there's known as politics for ugly people Washington's politics r ugly right right right but what what do you have to say about the impact that the Tea Party is going to have is having and might have on this culture well I will say this i mean the rise and growth and and maybe some what I ddd I don't know if you'd call it the emphasis the Tea Party's rise and whatever you'd call it in the last few years has run through my narrative and look I would say this i mean i have come away from this project with a greater appreciation for populism on either side for people on either side being upset fundamentally with what is going on here and i think that this is a very bipartisan argument and frankly the best part about my job I think is I get to leave town periodically I mean I do I mean it's it's a great I like living here and I can get to the seeming contradiction of that if anyone cares but but no I leave town I'm a political reporter I love being outside of town where people actually are able to talk to me and a frankly more genuine real manner I think the impact the Tea Party is part of a continuum and I think there have been these change elections like 2006 the Democrats swept out the Republicans 2008 we elected our first african-american president in 2010 the Tea Party had their say and Republicans took that congressman and so I mean from what I can from where I sit the only change that keeps happening in Washington's people just keep getting richer and richer and people keep getting more and more demoralized with what goes on here but I do think that look III think people here act in their own self-interest and I mean for instance people wouldn't be debating immigration now if Republicans didn't see the writing on the wall and see that you know their numbers are in or frankly stacked very much against them and they probably need to do something or else they're going to become quite a marginal you know party gay marriage same thing I think a lot of that starts from with a populists as a populist tissue as a grassroots issue and let's see I'm even like like handgun you know regulation I mean that all sort of started again from the grassroots I mean took a horrific event or set of events to maybe put it on the radar but this is you know this is these are all examples of people in the culture imposing their will in their own sort of their own unique and distinct ways we have a question right there yeah so you you mentioned briefly about the anarchy in the peanut gallery and what the anarchy Nikita calorie and the ability for anyone sort of have a platform at this point which I mean it's a good opportunity for people to get their voices out there but it also opens the door to a lot of excuse me PS and a lot of ways to deceive people a lot of I guess untruth or the lies to come out here and so as a journalist I'm interested how are you how do you temper that you don't want to shut down the public voice you don't want shut down to free speech but how do you temper how do you educate people to look beyond so much of what could be just crapped to what really know it's interesting I've authority no no you're it's a it's a very good point i mean i think look I mean my job as a journalist and my job you know at the institution I work for the New York Times is to meet a certain standard and I don't see us as like competing I mean I am hoping that the quality will ultimately be rewarded by the marketplace but I mean I think the bigger danger rather than sort of seeing this as a million disjointed voices and the low barrier to entry is just the blur it creates the what it does to attention spans what it does to people's ability to be outraged what it does to people's ability to we're being watched we're being one yeah NSA here and i sort of i could be Paul being followed anywhere where was I people's ability to be out with beer agent and I'm frankly just the notion that this is not one big blur I mean this is real life and and hopefully the marketplace will reward the standards that that publications that that you know deserve to be rewarded will will get so I don't know though I mean look it's a tough question it's almost an existential question because it you know it's not going away and Twitter's not going away and Facebook's not going away although stock price might anyway I think we have a question down here but yet what's up there reverse you know when you look at coverage outside of the New York Times The Washington Post some of the elite media what do you see in the way of the way they are covering Washington and is this is this part of the problem or part of the reason why we haven't seen a solution the problem yeah I mean I I think look we're all I mean a full disclosure again can't episode I'm a member of the media I mean I am part of this club and some of my best friends are in the media and mostly the print media and there's some great journalists that I work with and have known and a lot of people do a very very good job I do think though that again frankly there is a temptation to have the Anarchy and the peanut gallery defined down what what were once more respectable news organizations will print I mean there can be that there is a probably a greater temptation for instance to report prematurely on someone dying because it always happens to me her president the first president Bush was very sick around December and and of course as always happens now there was some outlet that reported that he had died and they had to do an immediate retraction but I think that's sort of a it wasn't true it it's it's sort of emblematic again of what I think speed can do and and look I mean there's some really good journalism that comes out of here and much of it displayed in this in this these halls but I think look it's very very important to recognize that we're all playing on us playing field that no one is really defined and hopefully the definition that we come up with will not be downward and quality but reach some kind of level that maintains the quality and maintains the viability of what we're trying to do in the read more of a comment on Congress Lindy Boggs died today and I've long maintained that the Congress would not be hey be behaving as it has been had she been a member of Congress but that really is the end of gentility in Washington a lot of people have said this I mean I think look I mean gentility is it certainly not what it was and Lindy Boggs is doing we're gonna go up there and they know I think we have a question of front here yeah so with the success of the book and you as an author you know you might very well be invited to speak at colleges and universities what are some words of wisdom that you would give those aspiring to be or to go into politics and and what would be some words of wisdom coming from this book and your experiences as a journalist to to them specifically right now I mean I think one of the gratifying things about the the early part of the reaction of this book has been people outside of Washington mean this book I knew was going to sort of leave to some kind of freaked out inside of washington and i've not been disappointed but it was geared to for people outside of washington and one of the gratifying things has been college students college professors policy political science professors I mean the dean of harvard medical school has been tweeting about it I mean I I do think that it has a certain resonance and I do think that people will read this book and some have as a cynical book and it is in some ways I think it's very hard to be a journalist in this town and not become cynical given how we are talked to in the day-to-day I mean people talk to you in the language of spin or obsequious pneus or lies or or force talking points I mean this is not how human beings talk to each other so I would say this though I mean I would say this this book i do think on a level comes from a place of idealism it comes from the place of someone who is actually pretty patriotic someone who has three young kids and wants them to feel good about the city the capital city the country frankly and what I say to journalists first of all it's a great profession it is it is it's an embattled profession everyone says well journalism's dying and newspapers are going out of business and layoffs and this it's all this is true make them now that the dying part is true but it there is obviously struggles in our industry but it is a great profession I think when done right it's incredibly satisfying incredibly edifying to readers and I so I believe in that I also i do I believe in this gonna sound pretty schmaltzy maybe but I believe in America and I believe in young people especially holding on to an idealism and not letting it erode once you get here if you want to come here but I mean I've been at too many political rallies both sides and I've seen people really believing and really feeling idealistic about what they were hearing and I don't think I'm not all cynical about that at all not even mostly cynical about that I think that that's a powerful thing and I would advise anyone who was getting into politics or even getting into journalism is to to hold on to that in some place which shouldn't mean you but you're not shouldn't be skeptical or cynical even but just to hold on to it and I know that sounds maybe a little abstract but it's sort of where I think I'm coming from we have time for just a few more questions all right there that thank you i love that statement we just came from the korean celebration not on the mall and the president spoke and he did beautifully and john philip sousa music came over us with a great flow of joy and so I'm with you but you also broke the Pentagon Papers story and we're now sitting in the middle of a situation where we don't really trust our government now and all of a sudden we got Snowden and we're taking this poor little corporal down the road American just don't trust Washington and where do we go no I mean I look I first I didn't break the Pentagon paper newspaper was one of them but now look I basically i take the broader point i think i agree with you i think that there I mean without getting into the particulars of Snowden or or anything I mean I hear you i mean i think what one thing i do want to emphasize from what you just said is really the last seen in this book is takes place on Inauguration Day in 2012 our top 2013 last january and i'm walking around the streets and i do not lose sight of what makes this city magical right and i live here but i love inauguration days i don't care who's being inaugurated i love i love state of the unions and sort of the tradition there i think and i was feel i was remembered it was a great day I didn't even I was just sort of going in just watching people of all races and ages and generations and kids on people's shoulders and just it was just a day where people were feeling really good about their country and they might not have felt really good about the guy being rien a grated but but i wanted to i mean i agree with you i think that that point especially i mean there is a magic here that we cannot lose in and be completely swept away by the cynicism that obviously is part of these pages but i don't think all we have time for three more cars are there there then there's a gentleman in the wings okay right behind you also will start with you know he can go first go ahead alright so a couple questions one is you said you know repeat of the year part of this town you fully recognize that that's part of what you do so in writing the book or i guess in doing your job on a day to day basis do you feel like at one point you just held up the mirror and showed everybody what was going on do you feel like there's something you do different procedurally on a day-to-day basis talking with sources and reporting and then I guess my second question is I'm a flack for freshman in Congress and so I know you know sometimes the interaction between press and flax is very frustrating we talked to each other and talking points there was one suggestion you would make to you know younger staffers who are pursuing careers in press anywhere in DC what would your advice be that's a great idea i'm a great question i mean i think first of all to take your first question I mean yes I live here I'm a political reporter by choice I love politics by choice i want to continue living here and i am an insider i guess by that definition and i just i try to be as transparent as i can in the book about who i am and where I'm coming from and I hope to keep living here and keep covering politics and so I mean if that's a check and balance and my ability to burn people or I mean maybe that's healthy but advice I mean look let me I can only tell you what kind of public affairs people I like to deal with and those are people who talk to me like a human being who don't sell my intelligence and and look it's like a lot of public of you know flacks prank sorry press secretaries whatever you want to call them spokespeople but I do think that there is such fear in government part of its that the press creates it but there's gonna be some gotcha some career ender I mean I try to at least in my stories I mean I think if people read me I mean I I do reward I think authenticity and I know that look everyone's nervous and probably rightfully nervous but I guess that's sort of a broad piece of either advice or or at least preference on my part so so we'll do two more questions right there and salmon back there okay just as a point of comparison when you go in the circuit what will your speaking fees be i'm not i don't know i'm not on the circuit yet that's a great question though I you should see we paid him for this yeah yeah nothing never pay my parking yeah I don't pay myself you had a spy work I don't know I mean I don't know one's asked me to some people have asked me but I'm focused on the book right now so everything suggests anyone can open to something okay hey what last question yep thanks for joining us and sharing all this today I was thinking about 11 summers ago I was selling books door-to-door in vermont and i met a journalist named Ron Mott who i'm sure many of you have now seen as he has risen to outside of Burlington Vermont as his local market was then and i was i was in college i was at the university of missouri in the journalism school thinking you know I definitely wanted to go into broadcast journalism a dream that faded within a semester I asked him you know where do you want to end up do you you know do you want to get more into politics and going to Washington in New York is there someplace you want to be and he said well I think the only way I could go to Washington is as a reporter I don't think I could do anything else there so my question to you is is there anything else that you could do here um I think about that I mean I've been a journalist for 25 years and I love it I've loved every bit of it most bit but now look I my wife and I we fantasize about starting a life somewhere else maybe either as a journalist or doing something else so yeah look I mean there's a time for everything I mean I've been incredibly lucky we just employment wise I mean having great bosses and working for great newspapers and so and this book feels like doesn't feel like a people have asked me I mean is this like a career is this is this something you're just writing to sort of mark the end of your career as a political reporter and I've often joked that you know when i'm 55 i'll become a sports reporter because that'll be the next chapter and i've been putting it off all this long this time because I figure the day I've become a sports reporter I'll stop loving sports and I love sports and figure I don't wanna get to know these athletes too but now I mean look my eyes are open I mean I I love what I do I hope I continue to love what I do but I mean I'm always I always do tell that young people in any profession but journalism to to err on the side of risk-taking I think risks are really important to take especially when you're young and don't have dependents and so forth so no no I'm gonna have some more risks left in me and I last one last question like like any good Washingtonian when the book came out first thing I do as went to the index page to look up the names yeah there's no index well yeah I started disappointed why no index in this book uh well there's this thing called the Washington read which is people going into a bookstore and looking to see if they're in the book by going right to the index and if they're not or if it's just a brief mention once they've done this they'll put it back in and they won't read the book and so that's the Washington read I want to try to thwart people who were going to give this the Washington read so well it's definitely worth the read the book is this town thank you Mark lubavitch for joining us here today once again mark will be signing copies of the book give us a few minutes to get out there but he'll be right out by the internet TV and radio gallery thank you for joining us today thanks you

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