Douglas Murray on Trump, Intersectionality, and Political Adversaries (Pt. 1)

Douglas Murray on Trump, Intersectionality, and Political Adversaries (Pt. 1)



joining me today is British author journalist and political commentator Douglas Murray he is also the associate director of the Henry Jackson Society and associate editor of The Spectator Douglas welcome to the Rubin report very good to be with him to see you in person I don't know how we haven't done this in person yeah I didn't haven't been another it's yeah what in God's name are you doing living anywhere else besides LA well it's it's actually not my favourite bit of America I have to say I find it's slightly uncentered and rootlets also I don't drive so la is sort of hell because you can't walk anywhere but well I know you're not making that up because you were stuck on a plane for about four hours last night you arrived at like 2:00 a.m. then we tried to send a car to get you this morning that took some time as long as if it's me being difficult but now I actually managed to watch the three films before the plane even took off last night yes New York anything good no-oh-oh ever I don't watch many films they're all bad yes always bad almost always bad do you feel you're at your intellectual best right now because you didn't get much sleep are you ready to do this I depends that rigor as you want to be yeah well I've got some very rigorous questions right here but I think that's an interesting way to kick off because you're somebody that you know everything that I that I see you right and the events that you speak at and the talks that you give and all that stuff I mean you have to be at your intellectual best pretty much all the time I don't know if you feel you always are but but what kind of pressure does that put you under just to be to be one of the people that you know you have to have a cohesive set of thoughts and be able to defend them all the time I'm not sure you have to have no um I tell you what I mean I don't admire okay I don't envy politicians for having to have the thing of having to turn up say their I think never beat off message and all that sort of thing I kind of feel that you know I'm a writer I can I can have bad days I can change my mind on things I can nuance things texture things or I can be garbled one and you know nobody says oh my god he's a total train wreck I don't know I don't know if they did I wouldn't care but well it's funny you say that cuz right before we started we were talking about social media a little bit you were saying how you you don't respond that often or pay too much attention to that and not on Facebook I'm on Twitter I use Twitter as a way to communicate to the few people who care you know anything I write or appear on but I don't talk to the world as it were I don't think it's doable I think it drives people mad I've seen some of the least you know relatively promising minds of my generation slightly wrecked by a social media yeah you know you wouldn't you wouldn't seek out people to shout at you on the street so you wouldn't if they did say come over here it's like your basis and do it when I wake up and turnover in the morning and tell my phone on yeah so I do think that people have to find a sort of reasonable way to live in this strange strange world which is even stranger than a hey obviously yeah well it'sit's much stranger in LA and we are going for dinner tonight I'm gonna show you how weird it can get even think you know what's weird in LA I'm gonna I'm gonna really show you tonight tell me a little bit so we've done this once before and it was about two years ago and I had just started doing an interview show and we we talked about a lot of the problems that we both had with the left and the rise of Islam and some of that we're gonna cover here but I thought maybe we could just talk about a little bit about your history first and what kind of brought you to be one of the one of the few people that is so outspoken on some of these issues what what made you care about the free speech stuff about what's happening in the West all of this stuff when did that really spark in you um it's hard I mean these things are easier to recognize in other people than they are in yourself I've written about a lot of different things in my life I started writing very young they became I became a published author so I wrote my first book when I was 18 it came out and I was 19 or 20 I think and that was on literature and I literally figure and then I started writing about politics and the one thing which somebody once said to me about me is it was I I thought was probably somewhere near the truth was somebody once said that I had a very low tolerance threshold for lies and I think there is something in that I genuinely maybe it will wear out at some point but people just overdose as it were on lies but right I just I find I don't like being told lies and I don't like cute about historical think that's my first book partly about it I think it's a set of historical misunderstandings that had happened in relation with the figure I was writing about and I wanted to correct them and then in politics of course if you have a low tolerance threshold for lies maybe it's just not the right yeah that was my next question maybe you picked an odd thing to be writing without got into surfing or something I don't know but yeah but it but politic politics and political lies you know galvanizes me and I suppose the other thing is that I'm I'm not a political nut I'm not I don't really care who's running in that district for which part in which you know party they voted for four years ago and I sort of think is interesting it's not what I spent my life feeling taking pressed or you know enamored with but I do I do think that if you care about the culture in the widest sense as I do then you've got to be interested in politics you you've got to take some attitude towards it and they say not not in order you further your political goals or something you want to do that it should really be a politician but I think in order to try to safeguard the coach I mean I mean I don't even mean the coach I mean really to safeguard the practice of culture oh yeah and then that's what politics seems to me to be very largely for um I'm quite interested in taxation I'm not very interested in it I just want the circumstances to be right for the culture to thrive yeah so when people say oh you know I'm not a political person or something like that I hate that phrase because it really what are you actually saying you look like you're either pretending that you're above it or you somehow don't need it and yet politics you're right it's about creating the conditions so that you can do all of the other things you care I think what people what a lot of people mean when they say that I'm not a party person I'm not going to bore on about the Labour Party or concerta party or the Democrats or the Republicans I think that's what what people Amin but in any case a lot of people who said that sometime ago don't say that anymore in fact that maybe the more they said in the past they weren't a politics person the more now they're shrieking and gibbering and storming yeah do you think there's a danger in that so we had all these people that you know whatever that whatever that meant to them they weren't politics people but now everybody's shrieking and screaming and everyone's in the part of it that you just said that doesn't really do it for you that piece of the day-to-day racehorse stuff and that's why I try to focus on the philosophical right because the the who's running for this or all of that stuff yes it's important at some level but it's the bigger picture stuff that I think really matters yes and you know to a great extent in your country and in mine there is a type of person now who I think has got politics all the wrong way around I mean maybe it is as I say people who didn't pay much attention to it in the past but there are people who are now I think putting onto politics an amount of weight that it can't bear yeah it's about their entire existence as it were and I wouldn't want that to be the case at all I mean I you know I had with a colleague some time ago sort of informal competition of the Conservative Party won the 2015 election in Britain had an informal competition to say you know what's the nuttiest thing anyone said and the best was it his woman at the Guardian who wrote a column saying that basically she cried herself to sleep every night and she woke up in the morning crying and she sometimes she stopped time she woke up and she thought oh my god I've had a nightmare no it's true and then she burst into tears again that person shouldn't really be in the community should they right but if I I mean I you know I have views I'm who I want to win and any one time which party I'd vote for but but I cannot imagine any scenario in which I became such a gibbering wreck that I've just wept all the time or because she might not have been telling the truth this this corner right or thought it wise to say to people that's the state I'm in right right well it shows her victimhood she's such a video she can't sleep the best is when you see the Huffington Post or one of these pieces probably in The Guardian to where it's not just them that are crying their children yeah waking up having nightmares about mom my three-year-olds having a nightmare about drumming mommy what they say what can i what should I tell my three-year-old but now he's asking about trauma again I know I tend to go to sleep you know it's so funny I tweeted this out a couple months ago but when when in the middle of the election you know all these articles are being ready to kick how trump is affecting kids this morning so I asked I asked my my at the time I think he was five or six my nephew I said what do you what do you know about Donald Trump he looks at me he's like he has bad hair and a red tie I was like that's what again that's what a kid would think all right so I want to talk about your book but I thought before we get inside I want to do a little bit more on just sort of language in general and the free speech thing so when you come to America because we have some extra protections for now at least on free speech that you guys across Europe don't have do you feel an extra degree of freedom you don't strike me as someone that ever bites your tongue but when you come here and know that we have such a great for you or do you see something a little different here perhaps I think you do I mean I I think you just gotta separate out between the what your legal rights are as it were what the actual practice is these days yes legally I mean there's nothing I say that's illegal in Britain or Europe and so I don't particularly feel freer to say anything here exist nothing I would say here I would say there and vice versa it's true that you're having an amendment your constitution that actually writes this in a law is a very useful thing to have we've course don't even have a constitution in Britain which has its own advantages and problems but but I think these things have to be slightly divorced on the reality of the practice as is at the moment and at the moment I think you're probably you know worse situation than we are in Britain or Europe in relation to speech mainly because of a generation of people who are growing up and the most privileged generation in history who seemed to think that speech is violence and that in response to violence you should be violent and if you make that leap then the response to somebody speaking is to hit them and oughta shut them down or to burn a building or to get them killed or whatever you want and I see that all the time all over the place somebody I know in Holland who there's a couple weeks ago lot of people in the press of him demonizing him and then says house was attacked two nights ago and I'm Saddam and there's lots of that going on loads of loads of target selection and and I think I think all this is very very worrying but I I do think that in general you you seem in America to make terrible generalization do we slightly further down the road of certain manias about this it seems to embedded itself more this idea of being wounded or even hurt by words and and yeah and you've got all of the SJW stuff slightly worse I think yeah it do you think that maybe just that in and of itself could be just a cultural thing that Americans kind of scream about things more were hysterical you guys are a little more polite I was asking a friend in New York about this the other day it's I wonder whether the you know that thing you always hear in America this is the most important election of our lifetime every single one yeah and it's always I mean by the way I'm fascinated by the language hyperventilation in this country and I was fascinated by that moment before the last election when Bill Maher said look we called Senator McCain the misogynist and I we were just he doing it try to get him and we we're like noisy wasn't and then we did it on him and then we were he wasn't but it Romney wasn't really misogynist but now this guy is so I'm fascinated by this thing of basically a lot of sort of chickens coming home to roost in some ways you kept running the language down and now you're in this position but I said it's friend America the other day maybe that the V as it were the hyperventilation of politics is one of the ways in which you keep your democracy fresh I mean maybe you have to live for that pitch I mean I wouldn't particularly want to live at it myself all the time but perhaps the kind of this is always the most important moment ever is important for this democracy maybe it's better than the sort of doesn't really matter or ya never gonna be as good as that again that's a really ruminate on that a little because I think you can argue it both ways I think I mean it's why you're saying you can I can see a problem with that level of hysteria all the time and you're right when when Bill Maher said that and oh yeah yeah the left was saying all these horrible things about McCain we did it about McCain we did about Romney this is the real one well you've cried wolf to the point now that what did you expect to happen in an odd way is that is that a pro Trump argument strangely like he was of course what was gonna happen here you know what I mean like you tried it with you tried it with some decent sort of center right people right but of course you're gonna get this then right maybe maybe I'm resistant myself to the introducing Donald Trump will miss any discussion after they almost always derails after and after almost everything that happens in the UK and recent in the last year or so okay well how will this affect Donald Trump just stop talking about them to say allow other things in the world to exist yeah as well so you're saying when I think you're Mayor of London we're saying we don't want Trump to come here you'd be okay if Trump showed up right I think that's a just thing Donald Trump has made an official visit to Paris yeah he's made official visits to Germany to a tourist so quite a lot of Allied countries by now I think yeah I think it's outrageous and I think people should protest if they want to protest but and I remember the protests against George W Bush when he came to London and during his presidency and there was there some very very Vermont protests but I don't my people for testing of course right but I just I think this attempt to say I mean our most important ally and particularly an important time in our national history in Britain we need to be reforming our alliances and renewing them to say eff off to the president of your closest ally seems to me to be very very unwise as well as as rude yeah is it one of those things where it's just it's it's just the easy answer you know just out all that I'm here will it shows how good we are don't let it here but actually what you do you're actually do damage to probably the most important you know a relationship that these countries have salutely I mean when the Mayor of London says we don't want him in London yeah well well he's in Paris he's in Berlin like what have you achieved at the best you will you'll damage among other things the economic relations between Britain and America so nice work mr. mayor nice work right right all right so we're almost we're almost at your book so I thought this is the good transition here I was listening to I think it was you're not your last discussion with Sam Harris maybe the one before that and you were guys we're talking about language and sort of the slow erosion of what's happening in the West and the rise of Islam a lot of the key stuff that we all kind of talked about and you were talking about how we're gonna be arguing about gender pronouns as all of our rights are going to be taken away from us you said it far more eloquently and with some better adjectives but I thought it was a really interesting point that our our eye is not on the prize no in that we're not focusing on what's really important I'm worried about things that are not to say trans gender rights aren't important but they're they're not the big pictures know how important is all of that focusing on the right things I think it's crucial I mean people can be interested in whatever they like but I also have the right to time I think they're wasting their lives agenda pronouns all this sort of thing these this is there is by the way behind all this something very strange I started to notice there among all the fascinating things about this one of the ones that interests me most why you get this this this introduction to almost every discussion as if we as human beings are sort of solvable things I find this fascinating most of the trans stuff is you know identify that you're of the wrong gender at an early stage by the way I'm very suspicious about all that but I think can think of a lot of effeminate young men who shouldn't have drugs even encouraged towards them yeah when you say that you mean you're suspicious of the way we're treating them or of the sort of psychological sight because the the psychological thing in general but let's say in a case of somebody actually does genuinely feel that they are in the wrong body and so on that there's this awful thing in it as in so many other discussions at the moment of and if you Nix that you you'll be on you'll be right mm-hmm and I think no no no once you you sort that out you'll face all the same problems everyone else faces in their lives and maybe some new ones but this this is I hear this in the race discussion in America I hear it in the gay discussion in America in in a whole set of them it's as if it's as if if we get the formula right and see I I just think this is a fascinating mistake I don't think we live our lives as solved or solvable beings and and we are we are engaged it's usefully in particularly in this society in America in this strange attempt to sort of get it the my new Shai right and apart from being deeply navel-gazing okay it seems likely to me that that we may be missing all the really important things that are going on I have this sort of haunting view always that we all feel like we've really sorted out every aspect of LGBTQI rights just as China becomes the most important power in the world very interesting right an interesting yeah I think it's a fascinating piece because I was gonna ask I was gonna talk a little bit more this at the end but you're gay and I asked you in our last interview right at the end by that fact alone how much does that give you an extra sensitivity to all of the other things that you're talking about you have a vested interest you and I and I think yeah all of us I think all humans all together have a vested interest in keeping the West or I sure but I think as a gay person it's particularly important that the last places of tolerance and Western thought are kept alive yes I have to say my in case that's not particularly a galvanizing thing I have to say I mean I think being gay is kind of boring as a subject from the way because certainly for my generation I mean we sort of came out it came out and by your twenties right who wants to keep going on about that albeit I understand of white people did before but you know you there's not a career or life as it were and just being a gay you know I mean it's not a full-time occupation so many of us can be in reality TV there's only so many fashion gigs on Bravo and I so I've never I've never picked and it's never particularly influenced my politics and in fact I may have said to you before I'm generally very opposed to the idea of politics being about what am I myself and how can I get the world to most accommodate itself towards me mm-hmm I think it's certainly mistake having politics should be search for some kind of truth or the best arrangement that allows the truth to occur and you know your own involvement in it or your own comfort in it is of importance but it I mean I wouldn't want somebody said I'm totally into this because I'm fighting for myself and that's it in fact whether we're sorry since you mention it on some of this stuff on the Islam sufferance it's actually the first warning sound to me was not dreamed of gays I was dreamed of Jews which I became sort of increasingly noticing there was a problem a couple of decades ago now but um it was that I'm sure how how are you sir – in Britishness well I was I was worried about it because I started to notice that there were things that were being said that I thought wouldn't come round again and judge myself that you can you can notice these things and and not need to as it were have a personal vested interest in in it you know and I mean I suppose one other thing I said is I I generally think I mean the atomization of society into groups with their own interests is one of the things that's causing that all this mess in America at the moment I don't see why the job of gays should be just to sort of fight for the gays and the job of the Jews should be to fight for the Jews and and so on and so forth I think I think the idea of sort of looking out for each other is surely the point in a republic and yet that point seems to be lost right so is that where this this intersectional crew has really lost it because they said they're sort of getting what you're saying that we should be looking out for each other that should bring all of these minority groups together except instead of that they're vying for me depressed the vibe might suppress and most ridiculous and most hyperventilating and all of that but the intersectionality people I mean there's two big things one is they are the prime culprits of this thing of the myth of solvability the myth of humans our ability right if we just if we get the Rubik's Cube right and okay the games get there then we get the trans in and then there's people here and the non-binary love this and then and then the Muslims get there and we could all think exactly they can all think exactly the same and speak in exactly the preferential order that without speaking it will all be fine with my view is you'll still have every single problem of the world ahead of you you'll still have to work out where your foreign policy is a whole load of stuff is coming but so that's that's the first thing but the second thing is they are obviously breaking apart American society I don't think that's too much of an exaggeration because they started at the universities and it's trickling across everything else and I've been having really interesting conversations with people about this in recent years in Europe as well as in America and one of the things I'm sort of slightly confident about here in America isn't you do have an answer to it and it's an answer you've had before you know the problem of the identity politics thing is we're already starting to see that apart from being wrong in itself and I think morally suspicious and selfish you can't stop what you're gonna create on it you can't have racial rights for every group and racial pride rights every group and always hold back white you know pride whatever mm-hmm you just you just can't at some point is gonna break you can't keep bashing heterosexual men and not expect at some point that there's gonna be some kind of response so if everyone's allowed their group apart from the majority or whatever then at some point that's gonna get nasty and I can see it coming so clearly yeah I mean we see it now and it's already started and the thing is that in America you had the answer to this which is what Tocqueville mentions it's it's that the deal of being in the Republic is you don't do that you you deal with each other face face to face as citizens you don't you don't do it as just people coming to hawk something in the marketplace but face to face as individual citizens in the Republic and this this is the only way out but I think they'll obviously be some mania before you get back there again yeah you know it's funny you get that may you get back a week yeah versus I'm a you know it's funny the way I do the show I try not to talk about individual people too much because I'd always rather focus on the ideas but as you're saying this I'm thinking of something very specifically that Linda Sarsour who I'm sure you're know I spent an evening with in this also in Brooklyn really yeah yeah that go before a I tell you I think we got on roaring Lee I said some man you guys I know how to write was a bit of sexual tension in the room unavoidable but no the the fact he's actually she and we're asked to debate the croc fandom word Islamophobia at the Brooklyn Art Museum and I like a challenge and I think our mutual friend ayaan Hirsi Ali was also meant to be there but I think various things happened the garland shooting happened and it was decided it wasn't safe yarn I still did it and things but yeah the whole thing that he started off with the other side sort of giggling about the fact that they saw ray arm we couldn't even turn up you know it was all using it against her and Diane's afraid of anybody yeah and and yeah and I and I said yes I think countenance I saw before she became as it were infamous and I thought she was a very nasty very bitter very unamerican actually I just say that because she she knows like all demagogues how to introduce herself and introduce herself to some proud Brockton I to proud American a proud Palestinian accept Osetra no and I thought in an interesting order but it was clear that she sort of really hated America or at least hates America that exists currently because I was me that ended up having to explain to the audience that for instance the New York police don't just go around persecuting Muslims you know it's just a willful misrepresentation of of the American authorities at every turn so I thought she was very dishonest very unpleasant and but I mean I've come across her type all my life yeah and the only reason I mention her is because of what you said previously which really was about assimilation that the whole point of America is to assimilate and I don't know if you saw that speech she gave about two months ago where she called for a ji-hye and suddenly the left was defending the word jihad and the white supremacist in the in the White House and all that but I thought the key part of it put jihad aside put white supremacy aside the key part was when she said we're not here to assimilate yes I thought what a that is the antithesis of the American project this amazing melting pot that we have where we've done for the most part multicultural right multiculturalism right where Europe has failed in a lot of ways and she was saying no no absolutely and I thought that was more dangerous than the others absolutely of course I mean me as you said I mean put aside I know the fantastical idea that what she was suggesting was you know you sort of have a jihad by kind of going and just really in a struggling in front of it you know I I'm just struggling in front of this Israeli I'm having a turmoil yeah that yeah this is this is what I recognized the night we met I mean she really doesn't like this country by the way I mean we all have a problem by that what you what you do about that mmm it seems to me she's a sort of very rabid sectarian sort of Palestinian nationalist who happens to live in Brooklyn but I mean really what you do about it is that people identified that recognizes and called out for what it was what it is and they just aren't there many people who do that still I mean that you know we all take sort of baby steps on this don't we know as you saying now you end up with the left so defending Welsh even problem in this and it you just say look she's not speaking as a critic of our society who wants to sort of mildly improve it she's speaking as an opponent of our society because she doesn't like it mm-hmm I've encountered this I say all my life in my opponents and the very close enemies I've made in Britain and across Europe a certain type of person of that ilk who clearly speaks as an opponent of the society they don't like it and of course among other things all you can do is point to point out then is to say you know amazing your hair really isn't it amazing yeah and that's the catch-22 of what we've got in the West right we're gonna have to let in all sorts of voices that's that's the beauty of this thing and it also creates a little bit of the bread you

25 thoughts on “Douglas Murray on Trump, Intersectionality, and Political Adversaries (Pt. 1)

  1. Rubin is too nice. Be a dick. Not a pussy. And as a gay dude, it should be easier for you. That said, I like you. But please stop acting like so affable with guests. Hit them with hard question. Linda Sarsour is an Islamist, American-hating cunt. Nothing more to say on my part.

  2. I find it odd that Douglas Murray says Americans aren't aloud to speak our minds, although, when in England you can be "Jailed" in a split second for speaking your mind, as nearly everything in the UK is considered hate speach. (Ex. Tommy Robinson)

    He should visit more states in America other than NY, and Cali.

  3. Rubin displays a complete lack of curiosity on Murray's first literary work, on Lord Alfred Douglas, even though Murray kept setting him up to ask about it. I found that lack of curiosity odd in an otherwise ok interviewer. Did anyone else notice that?

  4. Dave Rubin and Douglas M. love you bros. you are always welcome to join me, my wife and kids for some asian food at our home. such wholesome guys . proud of you.

  5. best quote about the lady who cried herself to sleep "That person really shouldn't be in the community should they?" Oh lordy he is funny,i howled with laughter.Its at around 8.09

  6. When you cannot say the obvious truth about something, then you have chaos, and my father who was a scientist amount other things, always said, you cannot function in chaos. It sounds perhaps dramatic to some, but I also want Linda Sarsour not to be allowed to live in our wonderful free country, not because I hate her, but because she clearly wants the US to become like most Islamic countries with their laws, their religion, etc. The bizarre thing is she is being pushed by people with that anti American, pro political Islam agenda but she does not even stop to think that if she was in that society she would never be allowed the freedom she has here in the US, and she certainly would never be allowed to be a public speaker that has gotten massive attention that she has. She would not be valued, as anything but a vessel to have children and to do whatever her husband wants. She may have convinced herself that they would allow her to still continue in Islamic society, but of course it would not be realistic in any way to her life now. She could be abused by her husband or male family members or raped and that would be her fault. She would have no protection by law to do anything but accept it. She also would not enjoy the modern conveniences she takes for granted, like driving a car, owning machines in her home that make life easier, and being able to enjoy technology as in phones, computers etc. I was watching this documentary and it was almost comical the way they had to work very hard to convince the men that had been living as if it still were the 7th century, why telephones would make life better and easier. They had to get the men that were either the religious leaders or heads of each tribal people to make them see that calling on a phone was easier than having to get on your camel for days, weeks or months to communicate. They allowed the use of the modern telephone, after they were made to see that this was not a demonic thing, but a useful thing that improved the lives of civilization.

  7. Identity politics was good and useful at first and some wrongs were righted. However the original aim which was to equalise opportunity for everyone has been lost along the way.

  8. You could have Murray on EVERY WK &I'd be a happy girl. He's so refreshing, &U can always count on him to give it to u straight.. err..well, the info, that is.😉😁

  9. Mr Murray is brilliantly intelligent. Most of the comments against him reveal that the authors just cannot tolerate some one
    more intelligent than them selves….typical low I.Q. reactions…….. seen everywhere……
    Te stupid people of the world do not walk down the street saying:
    " Ah- yuk! Ah sure is stewpid ."

  10. I really like Dave Rubin, but it was a really dumb and lazy question to ask "Do you feel more free when you come to America in terms of what you can say"

    It just shows an ignorance of other countries and what freedom of speech actually means.

  11. Re his "solvable beings" diatribe. He seems to fundamentally fail to understand the concept of relative importance.

    A transgender kid knows he´ll face all the same human problems like anyone else, even after the transition.
    But compared to the emotional impact of being transgendered, all those problems simply are so small as to be irrelevant.
    You solve the biggest problem first, humans have limited focus.
    Obviously, we are never "finished", thats part of the human condition. And unless you are talking to some really stupid people, noone actually advocates that viewpoint.

    He either spent time with full on retards, or is arguing a strawman.

  12. Politics wouldn’t be a problem or a big issue, if the government wasn’t so big and powerful.

    Unfortunately, it is and we all have to be paying attention. I dream of the day something like the Constitution and Bill of Rights are enforced as they are written.

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