Can NASA really just redefine most of Mars to be like the Moon for planetary protection? – DRAFT

Can NASA really just redefine most of Mars to be like the Moon for planetary protection? – DRAFT


hello I’m Robert and I’m the author of touch Mars question mark Which is a book about planetary protection It’s about a thousand pages and as far as I know it’s the first book that’s an entire book on the subject. [CORRECTION apart from techy When Biospheres Collide] It’s free to read online. So I’ve got a long term interest in this and I’ve read up a lot and talked to people and so on and I was very concerned to hear about NASA’s recent announcement or their report that was presented to NASA and articles saying that they are actually considering adopting these recommendations. So the report recommended that NASA should reconsider how much of the Mars surface and subsurface should be category two instead of four. Now this change from category two to category four would mean that human beings can go and land on Mars without taking any precautions just to document what they’re doing just as they do on the moon. And it would mean they can return a sample from these areas of Mars back to Earth without again taking any precautions at all and just assume that it’s safe. So it is just defining it in such a way as to define Mars as being safe for Earth life and Earth being safe to return samples from Mars And as the basis for this they cite various scientific studies to support this four five six and seven if you go and look at them then the first one is 1983, then 2008 1969 and 1984 and then the very first one as a 2014 study which is the most recent they have. But there have been huge changes even since 2014 in our understanding of the habitability of Mars and there’s been a long debate in Astrobiology Journal between astrobiologists of the two sides which was not resolved with consensus, in which some were saying that we should reduce the planetary protection requirements requirements for Mars and others saying that we should continue with them as they are now. And so this is only presenting one side, it is presenting the side of the astrobiologists who say that we should we should stop trying to protect Mars. And on both sides of the debate in Astrobiology journal they did not agree with this idea that there’s no longer a chance for terrestrial organisms to be to spread on Mars. Both sides assume that if you landed human beings on Mars then it’s pretty certain that they would – not certain there are astrobiologists who think that Mars may be sterile, but it is a significant possibility that some of the new habitats that we find there the Earth life would be able to propagate into them and then if that is true then after a human landing there it’d be irreversible there would be no way of returning it back to the situation as it is now without any Earth life from present-day Earth And this could be catastrophic for the possibility of finding out new things about Mars and to give an example of exactly how vulnerable Mars life could be, we don’t know we have no idea, no life detection has been sent to Mars since the 1970s and those were very basic by modern standards although they were of course the leading technology of their day and the Mars meteorite [ALH84001] that there was so much and was eventually decided that we
do not know if there’s life in it or not and so the conclusion of most people was that they didn’t find life in this Mars meteorite but the structures in it that could potentially be fossils of ancient life on Mars but far too small for the smallest Earth cells and this suggests that they could be an early form of life which would be maybe RNA life or or whatever it was that came before DNA and if you go back then then the light back then could be very vulnerable to modern earth life for instance very early life may well have not had yet have been differentiated into different species of microbes one of the main hypotheses for before food before the last Universal common ancestor is that this life may have shared swap genes they meet readily and that there were different cells at the different different mixes of the genes but they could also upsells’ genes with any of the others and you imagine life like that we just just got no defenses this competition between genes but no competition between the microbes and imagine between Earth microbes into a habitat that is colonized by life like that and there isn’t gonna be much left discern and we can be can be pretty sure of that also because none of that life survives on earth now today although the mean many searches in the beyond some possibilities of unheard separate shadow biosphere it hasn’t been discovered but there must have been earlier much simpler life on on earth than what we have today is absolutely impossible that the complexity of modern life arose without something simpler first and that could be or loss and this would be an amazing discovery and there’s no way we can make it happen in the laboratory we can’t create life we can only pick life and modify it we can’t create even the simplest cell from basic chemicals we just don’t know how to do that so we really are dealing with a situation where Mars life could be extraordinary interest and very vulnerable so that’s for the forward direction and then in a backward direction from Mars to earth then you can many people saying all it has to be safe there’s no reason why why Mars life could harm us but if you go back to five look up Joshua my own book I look up Joshua ladybug who is Nobel winning Nobel prize-winning microbiologist and microbe geneticists and this is what he says that if Martian microorganisms every make it here will it be totally mystified and defeated by restful metabolism perhaps even before they challenged immune defenses or will they have a field day in light Bowl total naivety and then he has another longer quote in says that they you could argue that they can’t cause any serious problems because we know biological contact on the other hand ridicul argue that they’re to keep that trestle organisms evolved no defenses for exactly the same reason and it’s it’s possible that it’s also possible if life has been exchanged from Earth to Mars but we don’t know this last chance for that to happen was 66 million years ago at a time with Chicxulub impact which could have sent which is sent material as far as masks but it’s not toll certainly I’ve got there on that impact it hit into a know shallow tropical ocean but it’s not the most likely place to find earth life that we survive on Mars then the shock of impact has descended exiting the Earth’s atmosphere at eleven kilometers per second which means he has to leave us have his birth service even faster than that and there’s a huge instant shock which is much harder than just quite hard for even microbes to withstand it’s not clear that many of our microbes if anybody actually survived the shock of the impact and head off into space then it would be the rocks are flying through the atmosphere and faster than the int and the fireballs when you see a fireball like it goes bite of the moon because the fire breaks up and burns up on the entry to the Earth’s atmosphere this is talk about exiting the Earth’s atmosphere faster than that creating a huge theory fireball that would certainly burn all life on the exterior of this meat right and it would go in through cracks in little plasma Jets and sterilize it white interior and there might be some life was fine right in the interior of one of these rocks but it’s not clear if and then it has to go a century go through space for this decades probably a century before the earliest rocks start arriving on Mars then when they get to Mars then there maybe deep inside the biggest rocks there might be some life that has survived all this but then it lands myself I spread snow that there’s no standing water this note sees the soil isn’t moist the I’m soul is very dry and then gamma possibility of these binds in here and there on the pond soils but memories sit stuck inside this rock and this is not going to get out and into these habitats so it’s not at all clear that any life from Earth has even got here even all the way back until perhaps sometimes when the lakes and seas on Mars then there was a better chance of that being transferred from Earth to Mars and but then Eve and then very far back when the receives from Mars there would be quite a good chance if it was to even withstand the shock limb of ejection and the vacuum of space and all that but then hoax hardy was this very early earth life wasn’t able to transfer to Mars hast herbologists do not know if any earth life has been transferred to Mars and when they designed life detection instruments for Mars then they do this based on they make no assumptions they’re not able to assume by this this but it’s related to earth life or different biochemistry both the possible so and you will hear space advocates just saying or we know that her life is on Mars is exactly the same as all now we don’t know that and then the other direction from aster earth and we don’t even know what the mask capabilities are maybe is completely did damage by even the slightest shock because that’s something actual thing to happen to love we just don’t know especially for some kind of early life like I was just discarding and it’s it’s it’s possible that Earth life originated on Mars but if it did then it’s it doesn’t mean all the earth all the Mars life ever got to earth there could be we have several different geniuses of life or distinct groups of microbes on now it’s entirely possible that Mars had more groups and we have on earth that only few of them were hot enough to get through from Mars to earth the other ones might still survive on Mars and it needs to be vulnerable furthermore he fought like this on earth the stirred lots of ways that you can look at this where and of course if early Mars life is this very early form of life it wouldn’t have got here or if it did it would just been gobbled up so we can’t know that earth life is safe for Mars all Mars life is safe for us now the earth so I could talk about this term or later on but first of all the not one of NASA’s main reasons for wanting to classify Mars being safe is to be able to return a sample for Mars to earth the earth their mission in 2020 is going to go to Mars and cash samples which they want to be turned to Earth and if they can cut guys Mars is being cut to be too and according to the Outer Space Treaty that would mean that there’s no problem returning life from returning samples from Mars to earth because you’ve defined it as being safe and so there’s no risk to pay any life in it however bringing this is not based on science as I said this being this ongoing discussion in astrobiology journal about this and it’s not at all clear that that that Mars is sterile in fact lots of recent thinking probably isn’t and so to give an example time which applies in the equatorial region then curiosity we’re describing over the Suns he discovered that there’s a high level of humidity which is quite unexpected in the air as a drive drove over the sands which varied during the day and looking at this carefully they found evidence that the must be salts and probably perchlorates and other forms of salts but precludes if a common Mars anything up water Bay easily much more easily than on earth the Mars atmosphere at night has a very high level of humidity close to hundred percent that’s going to get so cold as a huge difference it can get cold as cold at night on Mars so-called the carbon dioxide faces out as carbon dioxide snow that’s how cold it can get here from hidden it in the equatorial areas even in the warmest regions of Mars and so in especially in winter I went gets cold then these salts take up a lot of water from the high humidity of the atmosphere because you know like on a warm today your clothes dry it’s the same on last May it’s warm the air is very dry when it’s cold that is very moist I gets close to hundred percent humidity and their salts take up this humidity they become liquid they come a salty brine then in the day as it warms up and this this is just a couple of centimeters below the surface very close to the surface so it is warm damp in the daytime and then the salts evaporates this this liquid and these conditions are so extremely cold at night that they don’t think that life would be able to survive at night even though it’s quite liquid in the daytime then it would be too salty for earth life so it’s probably not no not conditions in flat earth life could live but it could be conditions in which Mars life could live because Mars life will be used to perchlorates just as our life has salt only salt in it because we’re involvement time with lots of salty water well on Mars the natural salt to use there would be recordings which is which raised a much licking the salty bonds with records say look we the much colder temperatures they prevent freezing crystals they they are good anti freezes and then it would also look quite likely hydrogen peroxide in it and so the so the life on Mars that could very well be like that in some xpick incorporates least some element of this especially since it has this very cold binds anyway which we don’t have on earth so any life that could survive in them would be highly would be evolved to be able to adapt in them so if there was mix a different life and some could survive at cold temperatures then it would evolve and it would be there so there is a another and not a not inconsiderable chance that these salty binds to have Martian life in them and this Martin life could form biofilms on Mars just as else on earth and this life would incorporate the water in it so then all these calculations about how in the daytime the results are going to evaporate from the it’ll just be far too salty for that life it’s not going to apply anymore if you’ve got like that because the biofilm would which would capture the water at night and keep it during the day and he would actually metabolize more in the born conditions in daytime so there’s absolutely no guarantee there’s no that there’s no master not even preggers to his his face driving right now and it’s no guarantee that earth life is unable to survive in these in these biofilms you can’t prove a thing like that because we have never sent any part life detection instruments to masks since Viking into the 1970s in 1970s they were other crude instruments by modern standards they heated up the the O’Keefe organics a little ovens that most likely to on with curiosity today but the problem with that is that there are perchlorates in the martian soul as well and before it’s react with organics and when you heat them up in these ovens then you destroy all the organics with the perchlorates so if you’ve got only a small amount of organics and bridge and such as a few spores in the dust you’re just going to destroy them when you try and examine them with these little ovens and then the other way you could that they can do it is that they can look for the life but by trying to reproduce it in a medium and the Viking labeled release did get a signal it’s the only only through morning one of the three signals with three experiments because a pretty definitive signal it was very puzzling but remember it had these surprising perchlorates which nobody expected which interfered with experiments in unexpected ways and elected me analysis of the Viking labeled release which the way it worked he took up radioactive carbon from some food that was given to it and then if it metabolized then he would have given off carbon dioxide where you could have you could detect the radioactivity and so decide from that where the knot was being metabolized I did get the signal but it was confusing it didn’t quite expect as expected and the other ones seem to be contacting it and so at the time the conclusion was it sterile but we no longer noted sterile now they quit because of these new discoveries about Mars and because of looking back at this experiment they actually found a circadian rhythm a specialist in circadian rhythms looked at this experiment and he found that a signal which was out of phase I commanded he was half an hour or something like that I gave him pin this page in my book on circadian rhythm I can find it in a minute yes here we are and they found the circadian rhythms and they are but his circadian rhythms were uttered phrase it great just been during the warp due to the warming due to warming but see if we can find the number he found yeah he really is the phase thing they were delayed by two hours now you can have inserted you graph but rich so the temperature is fluctuating because the variation of the day and night of Mars but the circadian the rhythms from the label release the releases were brought to face with the circadian and with the temperatures not very hard to explain with simple chemistry so because of this and various other things then there are some pathologists are coming around to the conclusion that it is possible that Viking did detect life back then Clifford did we haven’t sent sent sent anything tomorrow Simpson that has the capability to detect life in these small quantities especially since parking also don’t below the surface to get his sample and that would get into this for instance sister sent me to be low low there you could have dug up some of this Martian life and put it into a sample interest experiment and curiosity can’t even take down two centimeters so although it has in direct evidence of this life it is no proof that a opted-in indirect evidence of these binds it doesn’t it doesn’t prove they exist and it can’t pick down and study in it but it just doesn’t got Hanson or any taking implements a positive portrayal particularly drill into rocks a little way he can’t take two centimeters into the into the dust and so this is certainly possible dislike even by curiosity is that many other ways the THL in in germany which is like the equivalent of NASA or ISA and they and they found that they were able to get lichens to again maybe look at the look of lichens on here finding dll extra here we are lesions and cyanobacteria so there’s there experiment and you can see they’re testing a little look with something on it on Mars and that there it is and this is a chlorophyll which is a relation which is able to metabolize on the high UV conditions very high up in the Antarctic mountains which is pretty close at school so you can get to Mars conditions and they were surprised to find they actually continues to metabolize and used to grow and photosynthesize and the remarkable thing is that okay she’s got a fungal an algal component and the fungal component was able to continue to grow presumably to getting its oxygen from the algae because there’s no oxygen to speak of in the atmosphere that they provided for inseminating Earth Mars Mars life and this and it was actually growing and it’s only a short experiment only a few a couple not so I can’t remember but this they came to the conclusion and they all stick did experiments like that with with blue-green algae as well cyanobacteria and these also were able to survive in last conditions in the near vacuum in the ultraviolet and they ain’t interesting here is that this one in the math experiment he was not using anymore to the one wasn’t surprised even with these salty ones he was just using the moisture in the atmosphere like I said you get 100% and you closed hundred percent and it’s Abel and in Antarctica then lichens able to survive without any water but taking in moisture from the atmosphere these same missions are able to the same check in Martian conditions so it’s possible it could be higher higher life forms like legends who masks not going to expect plants animals insects or Birds or anything like that but you quit afflictions and very likely to have microbes and this could survive anywhere from the Mars surface and they oughta find like people often go on but the ultraviolet light is sterilizing what they forget is ultraviolet light it’s a slight ANCA and can be blocked by merely to serve dust it can be blocked just by being in the shadow of a rock and with this this experiment it can also you get partial shade of a crack was something with religion in it so this legend on in the Antarctic mountains then it lives it has a kind of habitat inside another picture of it for this the experiment expect anyway in a logical picture of this but in in the in Antarctica in my book Tommy Harper take a while to find it in this actually also a survey widespread on earth Nanaki survives Mediterranean areas as well it’s but a kind of nut habit it just spreads out but in the Antarctic in high mountains then it’s got a kind of a cluster kick it gets into cracks in locks he hides from the ultraviolet light and if we do the same on us so it is possible this literally transferred to Mars my people survive there costing around in cracks in the rock and hiding from the direct sunlight in getting partially direct light it’s got Fairs pigments in it that help to protect it from UV light so the many ways that life could survive on Mars and so so so if they return a son now if the NASA if NASA is both to goes ahead with this and maybe defines parts of Mars as category two this will not solve their problems with returning a sample from Mars back to earth the reason is that that it does solve it for the outer space treaty the outer space treaty is it has very little only subject just a few sentences on harmful harmful contamination and then everything since then is people during attempting to legal interpretations and spending a lot of stuff out of this of this little phrase contamination what did the framers of the outer space treaty mean by harmful has been taken to mean harmful to experiments of other parties to the treaty if you send experiment message things up for that for other people they’re not harmful for their scientific experiments it may have a wider meaning but that’s part of it and the same way coming back from Mars to earth so so what they’re doing if they recut across the Atlantic and then these categories one two three four and five they were done as a result of they are all the entire legal plantation of all that is just this little phrase about harmful contamination in outer space treaty so it is very weak not legal foundation and so they they signed it’s really based an awful lot on countries also mutually agreeing it is important to protect Mars loot detector and together with the Outer Space Treaty and this combined interpretation of them all that this is how we understand it in the meeting of course bar so it’s a no thought based on that and but people are varying in fierce legal opinions about what the legal situation is sense one lawyer who tries to interpret in a much lapse of way and hoping it up and make it easier to return things for humans to go to Mars so with these legal contention about the hot space treaty this little boy is in a very much mind minority and most lawyers say that they’re wrong but whatever the situation the outer space treaty is not herb they have a both provable proof space to an agreement but the thing is if you return materials from Mars it just wasn’t written for the main aim list is one bit of course this is impossible very quickly but if you return a sample from Mars back to earth then you also encounter all the environmental laws to protect earth and those didn’t exist at the time of Apollo and the people who think about the Mars sample return they just don’t seem to have even started to think about these laws Margaret race whose ass belches for SETI she looked into it and she worked out all whole sequence of different laws I’ve gotten article about it in which I tried to she didn’t give a timescale not tried to work out how long it would take to pass all these laws and so the sequence with Anna can’t be passed all at once some of them have to be passed before other ones and then once that is all done then you have to start building your Mars receiving facility to return the sample and you have to before you can build your facility now good start the new facility straightaway you could start building your facility today but NASA as as a NASA as as a what you call it it’s um well the way they do things and I’m saying words well it’s getting my mind for the moment but then with the way that NASA does think that protocol there’s procedure is that it doesn’t build things and doesn’t do missions unless the legal provisions for it ready being passed which is naturally enough so NASA would not build the Mars receiving facility until all the laws that have passed in order to make it happen the reason being because the loan could be passed it wouldn’t mean that helped build something different from what they started building now so they can’t start building this facility yet and then when they start building the facility they would have to test it because I miss it because back in a time of Apollo there were many mistakes made but the Apollo materials returned to earth the way they thought they contained them was absolutely laughably they no use at all according to bother understand of microbiology and they and the way today puts also put Patoka vehicle now they published the their requirements for sample return on the day that Apollo 11 not known to Mars no moon and so looked he was given any chance to look at it and check it and I noticed though specific ones they they actually and used when they returned the sample problem you into her and then they and they and even the astronauts got out of the return module in the open sea into a dinghy and the and they talked about how the interior was covered in dust and they smelt it like gunpowder and everything there’s obviously no doubt that some dust from the moon got into the scene when the Apollo astronauts got out of there Cutshaw and so that really was no protection of of the earth from moon it was all just show up than that because there’s no doubt to told that if there had been any life on the moon exposed in the dust or anything like that it would have gotten to the sea I could probably definitely and the original plan was to lift the cap solomon go up onto the waiting ship but they crane there was some problem with the crane and so they think they couldn’t do that phased and they just couldn’t wait to get it fixed so they just sent the helicopter and the people with and delivery they deliver something guess and they just opened open the door and they and they hand it in the decontamination suits probably for the for the polar astronauts to put on then they came out the suits would rather have who could have had dust on them and the dust be to come out when they opened the door to the capsule there’s no way that that protected her and then there were many beaches after that with the sample return facilities when they people took things out of the sample return the empty and receiving a bath amusing story buzz buzz aldrin he talks about anyway in the in a quarantine chamber and he says some plants came into it from outside and he’s member looking at the answers I think you know what what is all this quality enduring you had people and calling in an article about quarantine chamber and so he’s got a bother amusing story about nothing he’s went to Prague Rafi so if it was and then there’s no protective reason for a two-week quarantine period either that wasn’t decided on in basically science and for instance some some diseases have quantum periods or twenty years or more it’s very difficult to contain to contain anything with quarantine period if you don’t know what it is you can if you do know what it is I mean rabies that’s pointed paid I think seven months that they they do them for nowadays somehow it’s not just because I can’t remember I have to look at up but no you can’t you couldn’t just get it get a take it I talk in turn into a country where this protection for maybes in just two weeks and yet they yet they did that with you the notes from the following so really that would that would just stop infinity today you couldn’t do it you simply simply are not that flux now that like we were back in the 1960s when I was a child and there’s no way that that mark that NASA is going to be admitted to anything like that with the with it sample return from us because I’m not because we are to Space Treaty but because of numerous laws to protect the Earth’s environment and our biosphere in our ecosystem so do not worry if you’re scared but those things do employ if there’s a risk for Mars then you’ve only gone through in public consultation and they find them and the the public had Margaret Ray’s found that the public will have a major part to play in this consultation and they will have to consult us and talk to us and it will not just be the masculinization advocates that are saying that they do this there will be people everyone will be concerned will be involved in it maybe they call expert witnesses the astrobiologists the people alike in this debate astrology journal both sides of that debate will be involved not just once that say it safe because it’s a proper legal procedure and it’s it and it and they behind we now realize that the environment can be damaged dolphin in unintended ways and you have to look at these things carefully and there are actually so Joshua Lederberg in that I get that quote from him saying of how we do not know a period a Mars life came back to earth then it is entirely possible that there will be no defenses against it that is one of the two possibilities and the other ways it could be harmful imagine it was related to earth life and his photosynthetic life and that it has a 1% advantage over earth life in his photosynthesis and as easily possible so on earth life for some extrinsic reason we have the purple salt-loving rocky which one used the green light [CORRECTION] and then we have our plants and the green algae which use the [RED AND BLUE] light [CORRECTION] and the reason they use the [RED AND BLUE] light maybe because they evolved below layers of the [PURPLE MICROBES] and the [GREEN] light was filtered out so they were left with the [RED AND BLUE] and there are various other ideas nobody really knows or maybe they do now last I checked it wasn’t clear why [MOST] Earth life uses [RED AND BLUE] and rejects the [GREEN] oh another one of my senior moments We have seaweeds that are dark brown because they live in a very dark conditions below the seabed and they have antennae pigments that that collect all the [GREEN] light and they then transfer the energy so it can be used in in in photosynthesis The perfect form of [PHOTOSYNTHETIC life would be black so suppose that Mars life is black remember that it has it has half the light levels of Earth life and of Earth and so there’d be a lot of premium on being able to news Balogh like less then you have the dust storms which completely make it very dark for sometimes weeks on end so it’s behind premium on life is very efficient as photosynthesis so suppose that we get some life for Mars that is just a spore that gets into a spacecraft it’s shuttled back from Mars to earth and this could happen even before humans get there they could just be an Elon Musk’s star shot he goes over to Mars in order set up a habitat for the humans and then he comes back to earth it can’t be sterilized it’s huge big thing if he gets this thing rocky was no way he can sterilize the whole thing of Mars life a little bit of dust gets into it then it we get into our oceans I guess into oceans if there’s boat synthetic life in there of some sort then suppose it’s just one percent more efficient than that life then he could eventually take over from all the phytoplankton and and I it could then be unsupported stem poisonous it has it Princeton’s its metabolisms based with their chlorines and earth life is not going like perchlorates very much and there could be that’d be lots of unintended unintended poisons there’s no reason for life to be actually intended poisons for instance some of our green algae they in great lakes and they poison colors and and dogs they damage the livers and there’s no and there’s no advantage to for them to do that it’s just that they’ve evolved to attack microorganisms and these defense mechanisms are killing cows and dogs so there’s absolutely no reason why Masdar couldn’t be poisonous to us it could be completely honest but it could easily be poisonous and they’re basically three possibilities it could be that Martian life is very people like the people I was talking about where the where it’s early life and then earth life just goes Danny just rampages all over the place and doesn’t even notice the Mars life could be all the way around equipment so now if you look at the Mars evolution it had very great conditions by early on for life but then within a few hundred million years then he was much more difficult and then you had this occasion Lynx you could argue from that and they have a very difficult for billions of years good argue from that but life on Mars is likely to have not evolved a father and simply very early not and that would then argue in favor that earth-like just found pages all over the last life it could be the other way around though because if you look at the early Mars life then the huge fluctuations in the in the habitats there if I don’t pay him even gift over it’s hard to know how it got so wrong and may well be that the oceans were facing in winter and liquid and quite warm in the summer and then these huge changes in climate far greater than we have on earth and and sometimes the Earth orbits more elongated sometimes it’s less the atmosphere got thinner and thinner and thinner and then all these stresses may have accelerated evolution there’s no reason to say say this let’s let’s see what could be more involved as well that’s not the way around I mean if you take the mass me try to suggest it’s less evolved but if you just use logical reasoning I don’t think is any real reason why it has to be particularly less evolved it could be more important and so is it possible that Mars life is developing capabilities as that thought doesn’t have yet and that he would come and come and paging over earth life and then the perhaps the most general case is that masked life on earth life and this is and this is what I’m talking I’m writing on a paper that I hope to get published at some point but I’m very very difficult to find time to finish it I was encouraged by an astrologist professionalized apologists to write this paper it’s called planet protection measures need to take hunt of the potential for severe outcomes and by speculations based from differing biochemistry and so I’m some of these ideas I’m talking about come from this paper it’s not peer-reviewed but it’s um you know talked it over and I think the and I think it’s it is very strongly cited and I can’t be like this so I think it’s worth its blood considerations and then you know the examples a lot of what I’m saying like the examples of decals for instance that comes from a scroll just talking about the problem of Marcel return but this particular idea of it put synthesis could be more efficient or mass that comes from from that paper it’s just an idea that are looking to that and they and put them in this other one this her fist is called enforcement he he looked his was interested in seeding earth life on the dying on on very short-lived biospheres of about other other planet other stars they chopped live stars which have live but shortly who could mean millions of years and he thought what about sending that life over there you don’t want to send a reply to a plant that has life advanced life already because for the reason that they thought might might might just like Senate amazi might well you destroy the life there you might even have higher life there that is damaged by earth life because it can’t hit in some way so you wouldn’t want to do that but he looked at the possibility of seeding these these planets with a very short lifespan we face shortly the stars of a short evolution and just for a few million years and sitting it but that thought anyway he looked at the possibility of what happens if you mix two biospheres and he came to conclusion that the general case was that you have a mix of microbes of the of both sides that are in that are equal that are able to compete with each other equally so then everywhere you just have all the all the microbial habitats for many of microbial habitats whether people numbers of both now in that situation he didn’t think that that much would survive by way of higher life-forms because they’re so dependent on microbes and and so you could easily end up with described as being like a microbial mush but maybe some very rapidly evolving but things higher life-forms also very slow evolving with microbes are rapidly evolving and they would find very difficult to survive based on this mix of all the microbial collections being a mix of these two different plant chemistry’s like for instance in your stomach if half of the microbes in your stomach so based on the half apart Gloria base and half from producing strange bio chemicals that have made all the sense of Mars but can’t make one sensor it are you going to be still couldn’t be okay I just going to get a stomachache while you’re just going to die and if you have the if you talk about the mast life again one one people say things like the mast life could not Hamas will not be disease plus if you take the example of Legionnaires disease Legionnaires disease is a disease of biofilms it’s not a disease of humans it’s not adapted to humans particularly and interest the same mechanisms it used to to be a disease of biofilms to its look-sees orleans basically it’s a nice form biofilm and they just grow them twice neat it just like it does with her normal a biofilm is a mix of microbes that work together often different species working together and and they often in a thin film over a rock or something and they they collaborate together they often have interesting things like chemical signaling between each other where they it’s a collaborative community of microbes and this could very well it’s the Crotona Barbie Mac microbial biofilms or masks and these microbial films may well have ceases and no diseases might well then like other microbes that are that not collaborating in toxic kind of harmful to the biofilm and these diseases could then attack they both it’s like a biofilm the lining of our lungs and if that happened from you it could be that your nas has no say Latin Mass they get out they very excitedly they think in the sand they discovered this biofilm in in just two centimeters below the surface and then some of it comes back into their habitat is almost impossible to totally sterilize and then within a day or two they say stop coughing and their lungs have been colonized by a disease of Martian biofilms and there would be no use in using antibiotics very unlikely that plant aquatics would do anything for a mast office-based for different biochemistry and if it fits the same it’s quite artists evolved differently enough because antibiotics after antibiotics don’t kill you antibiotics are very carefully designed so they attack the microbes attack us and they’re specifically assigned to particular things in the way that the microbes work and details of SLE functioning and other parts of their life of the microbe so an antibiotic is its marker frickin kill me we can kill diseases without killing ourselves and with using these antibiotics same wasn’t until it antibiotics are discovered by Fleming and sunder and the whole history of it it wasn’t even known that such a such a thing existed a way of of killing diseases without killing us so there’s there’s no way that that we can prepare in advance to have any kind of medicine that we know would help protect our astronauts from Martian life if it happens to be dangerous and past apologists often say you know they do not think that life can be turned from us is going to be dangerous they don’t go into anything and arguments like this and Joshua Lederberg he was very clear theater know that him that it would be safe to return that another pint to earth if you think about it like this when compared with engineers to system imagine each immense disease that was that we have no protection for and unharmed knowledge might not even know that they need to fight against it they might not even recognize the signals from it let’s say it’s life because it’s not a lot different biochemistry it’s mattress them it just might look like life to to our to our defense systems because and the thing is this facing assumption that that our bodies produced defense systems who throws will here he gave that is a reasoning that they produced offenses or need to fight against challenges that they have actually faced and then you do not have defenses against hypothetical things that could harm your body that your body has never faced with no human beings ever faith and that no earth life has ever faced in hired entire history of over life and it seems we even to suppose that our defense systems are not evolved to defend us against all hypothetical attacks but only the ones that are based at all that previous human beings and previous platforms now have already encountered if that is true then is very unlikely that they would defend against a hypothetical attack from a Martian life basically different biochemistry and that is basically what what he was talking about why really mystified it’s also possible the Mars life just doesn’t notice doesn’t this baffled biochemistry but basically if it just sees if it sees how long it’s just being organics nice poor mechanics it doesn’t seem to be a strong reason for supposing that Mars life would be baffled by it it seems for the record that direction than the idea that earth us defense systems would be baffled by Mars life so they serve this entirely possible that we just can’t rule this out if there is life on Mars it is independently evolved I don’t think it’s at all certain that we need to say for a first life or for our astronauts until we only know it we study it now if you can study it we can send life detection instruments to Mars and that is what has built is a pocketful for years and years you’re going to look all just for all the papers on plastic colleges are saying what we have to do is had life detection instruments to Mars to study an in situ and we must have well sterilized instruments as well and go and look at life in Sector on Mars and find out what it is and especially today we have wonderfully compact tiny instruments of the consent to Mars and we can even send genetic sequences to Mars we can bridge repair which could be configured to gin to sequence an alien biology as well if we knew what the building blocks are and we can certainly if it’s just a minor change I mean quick design months to sequence alien biology and send that to Mars as well once we know what is based of it it’s not impossible and I’m depending on how similar it is and we and and then the interesting is if you don’t put every sense genetic sequence or to Mars and you find that there isn’t life that there isn’t any earth-based life there but your spot I’ve been you know in microscope moving around in water or you get it be producing and to actually doing something they know this life there you know it’s not earth-based and that we prove it’s called different biochemistry and so say if they say it’s entirely possible that the many instruments we now have at a very very sensitive we have instruments that can detect a single amino acid they couldn’t have done that with Viking we can now do that today we could send an instrument that could pick up a gravel soil sit through it and find a single amino acid in it did part is solving it and not see a strip our liver was is an example of such an instrument we have put a clonal polyclonal antibodies based instance pretend to Mars be a wide variety of fixed supremely sensitive instruments that we can send to Mars that are nothing like far far advanced over Viking but so far we haven’t sent them you can understand why it’s a big risk if you sent a lot actually incident to Mars and there’s no life there and it’s just going to attack and it’s I know it’s trait is of course extremely interesting important that a zero result is very important in science but it’s hard to explain to your sponsors and the general public that you sent a whole suit of instruments to Mars and they didn’t detect anything of any interest that seems like a waste of money it isn’t but it sorry but it’s hard to sell so it’s not too surprising there’s been difficult to send instruments to Mars I don’t think there’s any conspiracy I think it’s partly that the thing is partly because the people make decisions are very focused on the chemistry and the buyer can but that bothered them they are searching for life but if we’re serious about this we do have to send life detection instruments to Mars but he also sent him we have wonderful microscopes nowadays I’m short short field microscopes that can look well below the optical resolution and we can send those to Mars we can make of holographic microscopes that can look at the sample in 3d and you analyze it and you focus on the sample back on earth you take a holographic image on Mars and then I knew you don’t know red life is in that sample it could be anywhere could be paid closer very far away and you stream the whole thing back to her then you do the focusing on earth there all sorts of wonderful mother’s discoveries that they’ve made that we can now use to send instruments to Mars and and undetected they’re invasive we could never have done before and then serves people won’t worry about this and they say that but we’ve got to send humans into space elf to start with a lot of the Mars colonization enthusiasts they argue that we have to send humans displace because if we need a second a second planet in giraffe eurozone in case something happens to earth we need a planet be but the plan B but that Planet B now this is nonsense as an idea it just doesn’t work no matter what we do to we can never make her anything like us in her uninhabitable as mass which abdicated all the oceans completely no water left in any of the seas and nearly all the ice caps we have to get rid of all the atmosphere apartment tiny tiny fraction we have to make just no oxygen left he must left of the atmosphere we have to get rid of the Earth’s magnetic field north of now masses of ionizing of radiation get through to the surface and then and then we still wouldn’t be quite Mars because we can’t do any for the Earth’s gravity which is for three years – and the rare soul things become to be close to the Sun we get more sunlight there’s no way that this isn’t just inconceivable that at any time in next few thousand centuries four thousand years we make earth uninhabitable as Mars and all these plans for terraforming Mars I mean why not instead use earth sustainably work to impede free and we have problems dealing with no point not four percent of the Earth’s atmosphere as carbon dioxide and yet they’re talking about transforming entire Mars atmosphere into an earth atmosphere and even if you have never gotten aspherical on mars then it has to be about three times the mass per square meter of Earth atmosphere you know to get same pressure there and it would have to be constantly supplied with with artificial greenhouse gases because we have the half the sunlight now you might think home for sunlight is hardly any difference but it’s a huge difference because it’s the warming melted to absolute zero and so half the sunlight means it’s far far colder on Mars and even if you had the even if you had a no that must be a perfect atmosphere there is no way that we have trees on Mars and it plentiful to get even you would get some liquid water but you wouldn’t get trees and you wouldn’t get anything like like a modern climate and unique hottest greenhouse gases with huge mirrors Mars is not just a fixer-upper of our planet it is it is it is in fact I have been very interested in the moon for a long time I previously especially recently seen looking at this and I looked at the comparison of the moon with Mars to see which is best for humans and I was expecting to say oh the moon is that masters the best but the moon is a good second best and so we should sell to learn and move to Mars eventually once we prove proven that Mars is safe for humans if we ever do but I found there is the other way man if moon is by far the best least up to a few hundred thousand people then the moon is by far the best place if you want to try space colonization it has if you go to the the heart vacuum on the moon is an advantage it means that you can deposit solar panels directly you can do cash make solar panels which will direct the position using techniques that not economic on earth because is much harder than teaming in any of our factories they it has double the sunlight at Mars they if you go to the lunar poles then because they moon by chance is almost exactly vertically aligned relative to the Sun then the moon hardly moves at all so their areas are actually hardships at all so it’s tilted fell to earth but almost vertical than to the Sun and remarkable a rather nice coincidence really and this means that it has these craters of permanent darkness where he gets his coats liquid nitrogen so high surface Matthew Lewis I think 60 meters a day or something vast amount of ice every day and just through it sublimating there’s no way they can have ice on a on sunny side of break or exposed to sunlight on on the moon but so I said Nascimento moon but if you go to learn oppose it guess it’s cause liquid nitrogen at liquid nitrogen temperatures then ice can remain there for billions of years so it’s entirely possible that I’m there is interact evidence that there’s ice on the moon in the lunar poles this needs to be confirmed this would be a huge difference to humans in his eyes when surface but also extremely interests the search for life as well people talk about going to master search for life we can go to the new intersect for life because this would be called traps we’re not like from early Earth even billions years ago the meat rods get thrown up into there no craters that look into his possibility I could plant is a possibility so the meat rods from early Earth can get thrown up and land in the craters of of total darkness at the lunar poles and then the organics would still be there and if I talked about how this these bits of the Chicxulub asteroid when it hit but why not hit the each other tropical oceans it would have sent bits of ammonites and stuff like that to develop laws and they should still be there if you take and learn the poles which point little fragments of your femur millimeter bits of ammonite and bits of other stuff from from the dinosaur you know they should be there even maybe bits of dinosaurs who knows and I’m saying lots of microbes they should be there somewhere bits Brown cast a significant amount of the arts history if you thinkin sit and look and sift and look you’ll find it eventually and maybe even the DNA Jurassic Park it’s not possible at all on the earth because we haven’t had conditions to preserve DNA for that time they could be possible on the moon at least for something like maybe ammonites and we might gave like to find the actual DNA if you look at the people who have worked out the timescale for preservation of DNA on Mars and time those results and in my touch Mars book I applied those results to the moon and it is not like this my own finding is that it’s not published research but it’s only in Peru but I think that it would possible to find intact DNA from the dinosaurs would and even earlier on the moon that said let’s not very much damaged because I thought liquid nitrogen temperatures and it should be there at any rate the published research does say that there should be a meet right from there could be from Venus if it if only Venus had much less atmospheres calling some ideas it did and then he impacts could have sent me trance all the way to the lunar poles I think ripping I could have body like the loss and of course there’s no time to protection issue there with British life from from the mass where from the lunar poles so so that could be studied and then returned to earth I decide I don’t think there is I mean you actually need to look a little bit carefully but it’s hard to see that I could still be viable if it’s been sent by me tried from us through the poles and it’s been sitting there for billions of years and so they saw they so we do have a possibility of astrobiology interesting anthropology hard to lunar poles we also have ice that is a great resource for human beings and then it’s a great place to actually live because for human beings because the temperatures I think it’s with a 22 pillow so nice it’s below zero but the big problem for a human occupied habitat is to keep it cool not to keep it warm they are I assess as great films he trying to reject heat into space so Luna polls well are the ideal it’s a perfect temperature for human habitats and because it’s closets a vertical are cut because it is just in complete darkness you can have heat rejection panels that are horizontal and then complete darkness they reject heat vertically don’t have to move you can have solar panels to capture the sunlight and they could be mounted around a vertical pole it’s very simple thing it would only return land once every twenty nine days of whatever it is Luna that the 28 days the the lunar day it would just return time very very slowly they will always be facing the Sun and you could put up on a pole source to clear any nearby obstacles because you have these points near the near the sides feet of of constant darkness you have the peaks of almost constant daylight and in those pigs then if you could have a solar panel there they would receive sunlight nearly all the all the around the in the best places they have a day or two in the lunar winter when it’s finally in shadow the shadow would be a shadow of maybe some nearby rocks or maybe of a distant mountain it just depends if some some lump in the horizon that casts a shadow onto this spot and so you have to get after batteries at that time or you raise your pure pure Uchitel a bit higher or you have two of them you have one of them you’ve got different mountain that blocks it you go and put another one there many people the energy or you have a cable they link from one to the other and then you have to light all the time you have power all the time so there’s there’s no way or not anything like that indeed Mars is a great problem with power it has what half the sunlight of earth and it also has the it has the problem of these solar storms which can last for weeks on end and even longer and they block out 99% of the sunlight or the direct sunlight and the high percentage of indirect sunlight – and this this is just this is not this means that even if you do have solar power or not you can’t rely on it for human coming but you can rely on it for Luna folk only and that the numerous other examples I go to Vance you say goes through in my case for moon pop first I do comparison with Mars you also you can do commercial exports from the moon to earth it’s quite low cost and especially if we do the height and tether system which is two tethers one and one in orbit around the earth which pin and like a bowler can should I can throw I can can lift a supersonic hypersonic plane from the Earth’s atmosphere into orbit and as it spins around and then the other end it captures things coming back from the moon and then at the moon and you have polar which touch which can be synchronized so as to drop as a material to the lunar surface is actually specially my lunar surface that those things back to earth an interesting thing about this is this powered by the motion of material because the moon is high up in the Earth’s gravitational well and this it is setting if you’re strong send more materials to move back to her he sent from Earth up to the moon then you actually get you can generate powerfully from from from transporting materials we moon to the earth instead of using power you’re actually generating power by sending materials which is enough to keep the system going and it’s called it comes to get boosted by the incoming material White has booked itself in great detail how this collapse you work and it’s much easier to build in the space elevator his Juris materials we already have the it is not a very it’s not very heavy it’s much lighter than not it’s I think if you did missions if you had exports every day for a year every week for a year I think that is already enough to make it worthwhile on a mass basis to build the hoyt tether system to send exports from the moon back to earth so the moon has possibly very cheap exports back eventually whereas Mars has nothing like that well there is a possibility of something like the like the there’s this possibility of a killer cable being I’m descending from from papers Fatima’s almost at the new to Mars surface and then going up again then for people’s then to and I’m Tomas the Turkmen kind of piggybacking to see talking together and sending material all the way back to earth but I’m not so far more there hoping to build and in the near future at least to be so expensive to send he’ll back from laws and the Marshall and the Elon Musk for instance he is not planning he’s not suggesting that Mars could pay for itself by exports he’s suggesting he would pay for itself by exporting ideas I do not see how a colony can pay for itself plants the ideas no matter how brilliant the people are there they’re there the high strength aha technologies the real they need ideas far more than reader in order to develop their technology and juice it they’ll be partly to you they’ll be licensed in earth technology but if it is then the moon the moon people they’ll be better off as many brilliant ideas as the National months but they’re challenging and they so they can have all any if it is possible to pay for yourself pioneers you can do that on the moon too as well as for the exports with numerous ones there’s ice there’s possibility of platinum there’s many other things are going to in my book I won’t talk about it now so anyway nuts so that’s why I’m saying we should which we should go to the moon and then they hunt and that going to Mars is extremely dangerous to send a human mission to that it’s not just only well-known danger of humans landing there it’s the danger of the transition from here to there it’s like spending two years in a submarine but you are not permitted to go to the surface you can’t paint the air you’ll find by a complete vacuum if there’s a fire if there’s chemical release you’ve got to deal with it in your submarine you can’t go to the surface you can’t come you can’t get help you could just no there’s no way of getting back to land you’re committed all the way to Mars as soon as a Mars mission leaves Earth orbit it’s committed and it can’t be can’t return because I’ll remove too much fuel so it’s like if the Apollo 13 scenario but you’re way back is found mass instead of on the moon and I don’t think we’re ready to do this I just I don’t think we should do this we we get many life support problems with the ISS ready and it’s they get solved yes but they get solved because we got easy supply from Earth and the we I think we need to have us as well as note said that we could send humans to or the exact date the castor I’m sorry my name’s skip my mind even I know very well but you must know the famous Canadian ask Milt it does all the photographs of that and who anyway it’s one of the commanders on the ISS name will come to me in a minute but anyway he he said that if we go to or I follow quickly if I searched my page but canoe and I think I’ve got a quote from him here it’s rather fun we put too much there’s pre-clear oh yeah that’s it that’s it a fun quote it’s a rather nice quote hopefully just go back headphones can find it can so here we go um Chris Hadfield’s lot said yes so he is he said I think ultimately will be living on the moon for a generation before we get to Mars if the world and the moon were threatened and the only way to preserve our species was to launch from Earth you could go to Mars with yesterday’s technology but we would probably kill just about everybody on the way it’s as if you and I were in Paris puddling amount in the Sun a little can Lewis saying we’ve got boats we’ve got puddles let’s go to Australia Australia we can barely cross the English Channel we are sort of in that boat in space exploration like now a journey to Mars is conceivable but still a lot further way than most people think and I do not think that that Elon Musk’s arshad changes up it’s still way way beyond he first needs to show reality contempt human being safely to the moon which is a huge challenge and then once he’s got he got people sending people to the moon he’s got to show that he can actually keep them safely there in just sitting in his spaceship for two years without any supply from Earth they just go to the moon they’ve got this plasmid and got some food in there they they’ve got the regenerating system the atmosphere they just sit in the moon without any supply from Earth for two years if he can do that then his spaceship is beginning to get me ready to go to Mars you still would probably want to send three of them in case something goes wrong with one of them and do it going little under to the matter of three spaceships going to the moon going to Mars in one go and so so that’s that’s the sort of order of and writers I think this is not likely to happen in the next generation if you talk about generation of astronauts likes of 20s or deported young ass notes I know you get all the ones as well but I think like they are going through generation children so I think if one Stein’s generation not form so a by the time that if we were to start sending human beings to the moon today then I think by the time our youngest children are 20 then you may be able to start sending humans to Mars orbit I think said that told it to be recently safe so I don’t see humans going to Mars over it before maybe about 2040 myself unless we get very markable advances and technology they could be 2030 if it was very very fast but that’s assume a very very fast like if if we had a very very fast program sent humans the moon we need to do that first Fred the mood improves the moon in early 2020s maybe we get set humans to Mars orbit in the early 2030s I would think more likely 2040 and and then if we could send us to Mars or Mars orbit is the place to go first because if we if we send humans to Mars orbit and they can search the surface find telepresence and prespecified technology we have by then 2030 or 2040 then we can truly send thousands and thousands of tiny little spacecraft to the Mars surface and I think we should be we can achieve 100% stem Atlantis and the reason is because we know how to make a lambda for the for the for Venus we already have plans mean it we can clearly make a complete over for Venus indeed our ideas for way to do it and there are ways of doing that one that is cruel we already know how to make all the components for cool to pull the Venus which would be a fianc degree centigrade on the surface at 303 centigrade then such a rover would be sterilized very quickly it’s that’s far higher than the Viking Rovers baked up and if if you could send it traveling from Earth to Mars at 300 degrees centigrade throughout the journey to there all the amino acids would be disintegrated and at 300 centigrade you’re not just talking about sterilizing life about you talking about disintegrating the amino acids and just keep it at 300 centigrade for six months and there’s no brains going to be any life there so this is actually using components to be half today it’s not talking about developing any new components even it’s just about designing a spec for your spacecraft say this spec this space girl has to be capable of the m-series centigrade and operation addition was like a Venus lambda and then heating it to the nth degree centigrade and we can have hundred percent sterile being slandered Landers for Mars now I know some instruments will be very hard to make compatible with these requirements maybe need to be sterilized in other way so in some ways John to it the core something gets very difficult and think about how how you managed to make them together so I think they can actually work on Mars and like especially if you’re some kind of chemicals like the DNA police and those calendars could be destroyed by the by the high temperatures so you would have to have those later in some way that made sure he didn’t recontaminate it so obviously quite a lot of things to be thought about if we if we do that if we do to have 1% sterile Landers but I think if we certainly program to do this then within a few years we will have on 2% sterile numbers and face moments that we can send by the thousand and if we wanted to a thorough study of Mars we don’t want to have a 1% chance or even a tenth of a percent chance for each or even a low point nor 1% chance for each mission that contaminates Mars because over thousands and thousands of those then there’s a high chance that one can dust Britannia glass so I think we should if we want to have the problem is have so many different habitats on Mars vast numbers the sky I described a couple of them mister ourselves there’s there’s the there’s the possibility for instance afternoon opposed this doesn’t get nearly enough attention I think but in the polar regions on Earth then you get liquid layers of liquid water forming just below the ice that is due to the solid state greenhouse effect that ice that light goes through transparent ice so if you have transplant customers would be the same they’re blue ice on earth they semi-transparent that goes to it it heats it up the heat radiation is trapped and itself to melt his mouth son I think up to hard for me to reload the surface or basswood really closer to the surface and they’ve done a model with a modeling of this situation of Mars if we have transparent ice on Mars then we have liquid fresh water to enhance the trapped by that ice the models are pretty clear what we don’t know is if they’s transparent life so Mars but there are possibilities that I also indications something that the Martian geysers that the the fast-flowing dark streaks that you get that after that you get the Martian calm dark side of the geysers which are calm down side being thrown up into the atmosphere on Mars by dry ice then the den evaporates and produces these guys effects and then in the debris from the guys has placed lots of salts then you get these streaks that move up to five meters a day and they’ve been very fast-moving streams and these streaks may possibly be the result of ice that has salt needed in the ice on top and then this greenhouse effect causing it to melt the various other ideas but it’s like it’s thought to be it’s I think the two ideas and that was that’s one of the the the cheap ones it is in some way that it’s it’s trapped blinds that are streaking out onto the surface I mean Richard Richardson crater near the South Pole it’s a different mechanism for the ones near the North Pole so and then the numerous other they got ELISA father doesn’t know so in my book but I don’t think it’s not at all exhaustive and now imagine trying to search those then and you want to send several to h1 and the different like the armored cells or something in there mainly in the in that great trench in the equatorial regions and then the others in polar regions new you need to send several different ones to get a reasonable first approximation and I think we will not know if there is any life on Mars until for sure until we have done a reasonable survey of least sense sent probes to to all the in different possible places where life could be not includes caves and there’s a wide variety of caves possible on Mars all the passports on earth including bonds colored by liquid water because there been times in the past when liquid water has flowed on Mars and also ones that have my direct sublimation device into the atmosphere and once I did direct sublimation of carbon dioxide in the Alps being we have caves due to a fracture faults like 300 chips chips and when it’s alpha chirp caves and a monster – they suffer sulfuric acid carving out rocks and the and all of these potential habitats on Mars as well and to terminate our job you won’t look at least a few of each of those kinds of caves as well and I mean if you find a very habitable having talked early on and there’s no life in it you’ll begin to suspect the public life hasn’t evolved there and then as time goes on you get more and more convinced but you might but you might stop by life or the on FeO of early on right way to and then if you do find life that you want to meet another biological survey of mass you know what the effect that that could have on it it would have on us now all that could be done very quickly if you had humans in orbit because they can do telly telly operating of advertisement surface it’s almost like they’re there in fact in some ways it’s better than being on the surface there because they don’t have to put on a spacesuit it takes ages and ages and ages to put on a spacesuit it’s not easy and they have to be maintained and the Masters would get everywhere and they’re very very expensive and difficult things to maintain it’s far easier to send an avatar robots going amount of the mass and the advantage of the humans being there is that because you’re in orbit you have a little time delay between the thing on the surface and what you controlling either from progress or Tomas or you would do it from an independent orbit a sun-synchronous orbit is paying us enough the heavenly vision where it goes another way that every day April twice a day he comes down over the sunny side of Mars which is awesome Mars each time because math courses happy Monday so Mars rotating and half a day that it comes from the sunny side inside and it’s a slanted orbit because the Sun synchronous it’s designed be always synchronous with the Sun and in it so it so it’s always comes in on the sunny side and that means needs to be a tilted orbit so it goes past the lunar poles I’ve read every day purples so that was some of greater distance there’s a wonderful very exciting very interesting mission for the four astronauts but I think Mars would be baseball in distance when it comes and then you come in in the menu you zoom in very close right close over the as cursory montage you like to embark artists community atmosphere over the Capital Region’s in on the sunny side then you go out again over the poles and it’d be very exciting and they interesting mission I mean I think if it wasn’t I’m a bit claustrophobic and I don’t think I would pass the cost appropriate tests and and big to although that’s what stuff I’d love to be on such a mission and sat and you know if I could past yes northeast hands I don’t mind being in small place as long as as a window but I don’t think I would be able to pass the the exams on claustrophobia for as ten past notes because they would have to be able to tolerate small spaces without windows I couldn’t do that something so so I probably never be honest no but I couldn’t get a space choice of something you know anyway but I would be a fantastic mission and wonderfully exciting you know think about how interesting it is for us and this big basically a new planet so I see it something like that humans to the moon in the 2020s humans to Mars orbit maybe 2030s and if by late 2013 say be and if by then we have already discovered life on Mars then we would already have missions by then when people are doing life life detection missions on Mars service I do not think I don’t think we should send her some return of Earth from Mars I don’t see the point I I think we should do life like detection police pronounced biological point of view if we find life there then having done that then we could be no more to return then we can return it but not before then there’s no point and if we do return it then at least I mean some point for the geologists they saw extremely expensive far more expensive than the world’s world’s most expensive diamonds millions of dollars per gram sort of thing and they aren’t they so I think we should I don’t think we should return the sample from ours I think they fit if April’s might say so I would just yank out this sample return container from will print to trade 24 over and replaced by something else life detection sweet some sort of course it’s something I’d say but I don’t think that I don’t think y’all going to return it because it’s going to cost so much and because they’re going to discover it’s not legally possible to do it so I don’t think it’s going to return to my own view on the matter and they will have other instruments that point stuff down as far better before the grave for eternity and but at some point we wrote we will return samples from ours and I think we should return them if we know what’s in it and we know that it’s safe then we return them to our surface if not or if we think it’s unsafe if we discover life there the clinton human lungs or something then I think we should return it to above geostationary orbit that is the safest place in the entire Earth Moon system as far as I can tell well above it not just 200 miles above it but no maybe maybe a hundred thousand kilometers away from her something like that maybe a third way to the moon because that would be as far as possible from either the moon or the earth it’s very difficult to get to get from there to a jet it should be very easy of access from the earth but because justice is a Commerce Jesus gsst produced history satellites and we could then just have a big spaceship there when you get life do you get the samples returned inside the it just thought it was a small a small one and then you can expand or it could just be I stopped one of the Elon Musk starship spaceships just go Stan sits there and then you send this was to it inside it and I knew just borrow this house is going to not going to cost very much to buy one of his spaceships and you know much less than the cost of curiosity’s say so you could just buy one of these spaceships and prettied there if we if he’s correct these projections and then you just returns help with to our spaceship got loads norsu space and then you send instruments from earth up there and with spaceships you can send huge mountains until updated to examine it huge hefty huge instruments and then you would co-operate them telly telly or remotely from Earth that would be a completely onto the sent safe way of studying even the most hazardous forms of life I think that’s how we should do it and so so anyway so that that’s how I think we should do it and in any case you do not need to worry about NASA returning as a sample for mass they know compute ready to do it there’s no way they’re going to be able to do it unless we find a way to do it safely which could be either by detecting life on Mars and then if we do detect it there we finally put it is I mean if we know what it is then we can design all our protocols based about it what makes it so extremely difficult semantically complicated an eager protocol so difficult and everything is that we have to design a way of returning a sample where we have protection against any conceivable alien biochemistry that’s what that’s what these people are being tasked with when you ask master pearls just to sign a sample return mission that turn building for poor this can take any materials take a sample even one gram returned from us they have to design a facility that contain any conceivable alien biochemistry and that’s a tall order when we only have one biochemistry we knew of the earth biochemistry which is very specific but if we have a known biochemistry which we have studied on Mars and that’s a totally different order problem then you know what you have to return and I mean for instance if we find there is only life that is that his son that his hasn’t yet developed into a separate species yet for instance then we might well be able to decide early on there’s AB sin no possibility of any risk to her thoughtfully turning it and we we just then be able to retire strict the earth surface without any problems at all and our entire Mars receiving facility building which would cost billion dollars to build will be unnecessary so it’s totally if that is a totally possible thing in fact I think that’s quite high probability maybe a 50% chance that what we find on Mars is like that but it’s not a high enough chance to say that it’s safe to send us there because that’s the other 50% chance I mean maybe it’s maybe you can say it’s 33 percent that you sent early like 33 percent no not 33 percent present this life just me just saying because the North will know no way to work out probabilities so just say they’re all equally likely I think that’s about best guess as you can get and but there’s a this another possibility as well as the early life there’s a possibility of uninhabitable habitats not an idea from Charles Cockell I think that’s a fascinating idea I noticed the idea that you could have biochemistry that you have chemistry that but this than anybody comes to you there yet because then they liked them so that did this and then people sometimes seem to think but if there’s no chemistry that hey please no biochemistry that they’re just not contaminating it but I mean that is extremely interesting if you have a Mars an earth-like planet a planet like Mars risk simply similar to a life as a surface and if it’s had chemistry there that’s developed for billions of years and there’d be evidence of early on chemistry as well and all sorts of ideas about what chemistry would be like before you get life so there’s certain kind of very large crystals gospel crystals those might be there there’s certain kind of things that look like cells without ready there’s autopoietic cells which are almost like they’re not quite there we all sorts vast numbers of things that we can’t create because they have to breathe they just it’s not to see if the ocean takes a long time you can have chemistry that evolves for a long time as well chemistry that just works bugs away for hundreds of millions of years and something comes out of it the teachers that just shouldn’t get in it in like a few minutes of mixing things you know here later to in a lab so I don’t think we can predict what the chemistry will be like on Mars in detail if if we haven’t until until we study it again maybe it’s totally uninteresting maybe it is uninhabited but maybe this is an uninhabited habitats with the totally uninteresting chemistry now in that last case that is still you need be careful sending like that the reason is because earth life is going to transform the planet so people talk about for instance making the Martian making Mars for habit infer what happens if you introduce some life there that produces sulfur dioxide in large quantities then software dogs is quite poisonous or hot no soy don’t read self dogs I mean hydrogen sulfide industries hydron sulfide in large quantities and that does something very present just you have in the atmosphere if you’re going to want to appearance at the other hand it’s quite an efficient greenhouse gas so you might do that deliberately in order to warm up the atmosphere a bit but I mean mister consider this is something you want to plan you don’t want to just send you and say and just whatever microbes they bring with them just randomly really nearly that is the life that starts off on us so it this is something needs thought look at situation even if there’s no life there and but there are habitats for life there and they are uninhabited I think you still need to think about this it may be it’s no problem maybe it’s absolutely fine sending just a bunch of and whatever that life you’re having to have with you but it might be that it’s a significant future effects it could also work the other way for instance if you send your blue-green algae by mistake then they consult juicy oxygen using carbon dioxide when you wanting to come to oxide but the other way you may have predators so for instance you want to create an you want to cover well as with green ugly to pierce lots of oxygen at some point plan for yourself these sub healthy and so the all sorts of interactions can happen then as well as that you do send humans to Mars in out of the Mars surface then human than most microbes that end up on the surface are going to in some way microbes that are adjusted to the human habitats all the human bodies and our crops and so on just because that’s what you’ve taken there and even worse you might well have a crush on us and we have to make Mars safe even if you engage squash with Mars that means like a challenge accident human bodies spread out over the surface space hardly and all the spores and all the bits and bits of so on and so on but it I thought that that what happens more slowly but I’m making out for habitat now if you do it like that then they your seating Mars with microbes that that are very accustomed to living in human habitats even once is reused to defecate human bodies and they’re not necessarily ones that can’t survive the most surface Princeton’s one of the best ones best candidates for my Courvoisier mm twist and the very low pressures on Mars is actually I think was originally isolated from a human tongue they just happens for some extraordinary it’s just coincidence they disabled with son pay low pressures conditions idiots never experienced on that and and by the way the Mars life could easily be able to withstand very high temperatures there’s probably hydrothermal vents there’s something happy in the past maybe even today there’s very possible and then the life of discomfort I could get on the surface and retains capabilities this people who say that a life on Mars is going to find a third too hot there’s no reason to believe that I’m still young and that’s just like saying any life in Antarctica must be incapable of surviving in the tropics that’s not true I chaired that picture of a lynchin that survived behind Antarctic mountains will also hunt in the Mediterranean and that’s it’s absurd this can be absolutely the same on Mars as well as the conditions in daytime to actually come up to 20 degree centigrade in places on the Mars surface in the daytime so if you had lichens on the surface they might actually experience quite high temperatures so this it’s entirely possible it must not come back to earth and oh I think training me I took what some of these things in my paper who has told you about some some things in my in my book and I’ve also got the my article and I’m glad I do not just say for the time that I was but if they if NASA were to start today South illegal process of returning a mass sample to earth then I worked out just using my best guesses of the timescale of the different I looked up how long it typically takes for these laws to pass and I looked at the list of laws that had to be passed in the sequence in order that that not papers I was talking about but the entire legal process needed to return a sample from us and then I did on the timescale of the studies behind for Mars return already and each one the the NASA one did the u.s. one and the histor one European one European Space Foundation one they did their each time they’ve got more and more stringent as we find out more reason is because we keep on find out law but capabilities about life for instance the latest one the SF one we had discovered the look at the previous one it’s called the ultimate tobacky my mycobacteria I think I’m with the SF one discovered are very rapidly genes can be transferred between microbes in seawater so they had to they then said that we have to contain not just the buccal if it’s all hidden in the gene transfer agents that can use transfer genes horizontally between Mars life and death life if they happen to be related and this usually mainly Tuesday more difficult more complicated to design the containment facility each one we find out more about earth life we find out more about possibilities for biochemistry and these extra the more we find out the more difficult it becomes to contain and so it’s entirely possible it is actually it’s not likely it’s going to be less requirements it’s starting to be more requirements if anything and based on the latest study of that nature then I figured out that we start in 2020 and then you look at thick the requirement that you have to build a facility which mass will only do after the after its we know what we have to build and then you have to have it running and make sure that people are familiar with it and they not gonna make all these mistakes and volunteers and I’m probably running with and then only after that you can launch a mission to march up to the launch after you everything is known to work you can’t launch them while it’s being built you’ve got to do the launch out his hotel because the latest study and then that then you thought has no the three years as well and hopeful that if you add all those together then it takes us to 2014 from now before Salva can return to Earth and since they want to return before 2030 I don’t equipment to return it either that or the return is sterilized and it really possibly sterilized it in in the return journey but if they do sterilize it and April they some of them think that this will remove some of interest but it is not designed as biological sample return anyway they have not sterilized that they are not going to sterilize the sample return containers there’s also Bruton there’s a possibility there’s a small possibility of an of revival spore in one of the sample containers they haven’t heat sterilized it and and so it’s and if you get a microbe in it then people sometimes say that if you have a microbe returned for mass that it is going to that you can tell if it’s from a slug by looking at its gene sequence you come that’s not possible the reason is because only a tiny fraction of as percent I think it’s not one on one percent account name how many zeros percent of all earth microbes of had the gene sequence and there are many entire geniuses of entire groups of microbes that are only known by a few fragmentary fragments of RNA that have never been cultivated and they don’t even know what they look like they’re just a financial Pregnant’s of RNA which suggests these extra groups exist and then they’re lucky the other ones we haven’t even discovered yet so if we brought life that came back from Mars and we noted it’s not ready to outline it’s likely to be decades well even longer before we know whether or not it is a contamination from Earth or whether it occurred it generally comes from Mars it is related was some lady we know but if it’s related we don’t and in case you think that old but the Mars the Mars spacecraft don’t have unusual life deputy do if you look at the spacecraft assembly facilities which they turn off lot of sterilizing them and the process of sterilizing we actually encourage these extremophiles not intentionally but this side effect and they are extremely diverse and they also it’s also depending on the local conditions queens of the JPL facilities they’re now desert species that have come in from nearby desert but they bother more than in other facilities but they they were very wide variety and they do not there’s no way they can do a complete census they can’t do it they can’t do a complete census of all the microbes that could be on on a sterilized space sent to Mars so if we do find life be turned in in the south we tell me won’t know if it’s philosophy from up here it’s related because it’s not sterilized it’s not sufficiently sterilized to have that confidence so I’m not sure they actually lose by much by sterilizing it because it’s not really designed as as an astrological sample return it’s really science the geological some free time with the astrology has a kind of add-on without really that much consultation I don’t think the can have been not consultation with us to purchase it just not this hand in the right way and so maybe they still return it sterilized and they could return it they could use my idea of returning to above gestation you orbit an IJ like that and they sterilized half-written send it back to the Earth’s surface leave the other half there and then return that half back to earth but because of the way it’s been designed and done because it’s very unlikely they finds in life because the the movie is not caught by detection instruments and it could drill a sample from the look only wanted to meet away from patch of life and it will find it so I’m not sure even if it’s worth living off with on sterilized they could just sterilize the whole thing which is a much simpler example to return so that’s a possibility but anything else then by the way if you return a sample to above geostationary orbit you will not need to pass any new laws that can be done on to the outer space treaty because they it’s only if you return life from there to work that you have to look at the earth environmental laws come in and the hot space treaty is only about a pretending alpha contamination to earth returning of contamination to a spacecraft well above geostationary orbit so as you do it carefully and our way is returning carefully obviously wouldn’t be tiny by ever breaking that would be very stupid because they are apparently wrong he would hit him and hit into your surface but if you’d always returning him safely to you returning it to a lunar but on earth retrograde orbit his once good ones like you know bleep it went great that’s quite an easier way to return to it from us and and you return to that and then you can go from there – it’s not that great about the earth please fetch great What’s Wrong Luna that’s great oh great it’s red kids gets into an orbit right – great about the moon but in but but pro-grade volunteer and that isn’t one to convey history transform into geostationary orbit it’s an easy orbit to get back into and it hello it looks like talking moon is actually opening the earth in the same time period as the moon but sometimes going outside moon something’s inside it and that’s a nice orbit to return to and then you could then grow from that transfer from that we also returned to the AL monomial two positions around the moon and those also be quite nice ones to reduce and you could actually say but they’re not stable long term so but lasting but but above gestation orbit is this stable long-term that’s why even even when it’s a thousands of years in the future I’m not sure about millions but you’d you’d be you’d be pay is very very safe orbit to return it to and so so that’s the that that’s that is something requinto even with the the massive return written as for self return I just thought sure it’s worth it would be possible to do that and so I think maybe that’s what they will do I’m sorry if it’s interesting if they discover interesting life from Mars and we’ve got this sample sitting on the Mars surface and then we could return them to above the geostationary orbit no and that can be done with within the outer space treaty and this without even defining Mars you wouldn’t need to define must got to be tuned for that you can use Keith Mars as cupcake five country for and I’m the restricted country pilot herself return we literally take all this precautions detector you could do that consistently with returning to above zero station orbit and if it passes really set on returning our sample we find that they’re really very interesting and we mean we need it and that’s why I think we should do and then and then sterilized it necessary is there anything else that I won’t talk about I think that’s about it because any questions then to say in the comments I’m going to upload this to youtube I know it’s quite long and but we hopefully it was quite interesting as well and I do hope that we get obviously I don’t have any say on us and what they do I do hope I want to raise awareness in the general public of these issues and people just start thinking and talking about it and we will make the pre make the best decision if we have have all the points of view or not being behind being heard and so I’m not saying that they don’t do what I’m saying just being aware best thoughts and ideas some of you may not have actually brought to mind and thought about you can go do have go and have a read of my book that’s a thousand births is thousand pages so it’s quite long but you can but it’s quite easy to it’s organized to be easy to find sections in it so that you can jump to what else interesting I’ve written it to be a self-contained as possible I’m one I’m not sure if you’re interested in meeting my paper I’m personally you know I couldn’t let me know and I can share it via I can I can share the Google document with me I’m I’m wondering whether or not to share share it to a preprint like with our archive I’m not associated sadly with any academic institution and Peter took me to return and I’m just now I just got huge huge amount on of other considerations I don’t have the time to finish it but I hope someday to submit it to an Esther biological journal and and totally get published and someday but I just don’t know when I’m going to and I’m gonna be encouraged by an astrology has two biologists friend to do this and so that’s my plan for the future at some point but I don’t know the times that and anyway that’s it thanks listen I hope you enjoyed it right at least I am confident that there’s no risk for I have some concerns about there being some risk for them for studying Marshall as to biology if they go ahead with this category to categorize Asian because I think it’s potentially very vulnerable to earth microbes oh and I think we should I think that actually is a high priority we should study the effect of our current sterilization on Mars I think a good mission to do would be well sir last mission to the Phoenix lander to study the Phoenix lander and see if there is any AC Sierra Phoenix lander landed in the region at a time they thought was completely safe for plant protection but they had been extracted was one we began his whole chain and discoveries when it found that there was ice just below the surface but it was unexpected evaporating in the thin atmosphere it discovered if a clear pictures of the perchlorate some of the source of composure which led to this detailed modeling of line sir it had salts thrown up onto his legs and those holes produced little they dela crest they took up salt in the atmosphere it’s not simple it is and they do anyway they became liquid droplets agree or otherwise be sold on televised the other way just these little droplets of what seemed to be liquid but sadly Phoenix could not analyze these liquids and so it’s not possible to say definitely but people debate its way I think it’s pretty but suddenly he’s actually quit lines at a pound on his legs and then I tasted this remarkable i stroke measurements become the oxide in the atmosphere can you would be surprised how much you learn from selling just one molecule and the message operations they found that it has come from volcanoes recently on Mars so the active carbon dioxide coming and then they found the oxygen from it has been exchanged with but had something on the surface which has to mean some interaction with water so oh definitely start the most likely as hard to think of all the things that would do it so he was frankly evidence already in in 2008 that there’s liquid water on Mars they weren’t able to say by this present year pond every year by this president every year over its own president a few times every year 2000 years old being years whatever but uh but the native research is now showing very clearly that this liquid binds darling who binds their present all every year so so that’s why Phoenix then was discovered they discovered that Phoenix is is not in a safe place for pine tree protection he was not had to protect it should have been totally thoroughly sterilized like the Viking landers and said he was just partially sterilized like the Curiosity relying on the harsh environment of Mars to protrude to the rest of the sterilization but where it landed there were there are possible habitats exactly where it is so and then it was it was landed in such a place as the advancing and calm down site dry ice in winter crushed it and all his panels were crushed it’s his solar panels were crushed and these are conditions are kind of almost optimal for kind of getting bits of the Phoenix lander into nearby habitats if there are any so now it is still not very likely that it is contaminated Mars the reason being because conditions are very harsh it was reasonably sterilized they were only a few spots left and you want you would want some of those be able to reproduce in the pay unexpected Martian conditions so it doesn’t mean it’s contaminate your nose but it would be an excellent place to go to study Mars to see if there has been any contamination if the house it might need to be contaminant in might need to be contained it probably hasn’t spread very far with all the years since then because of the bay and harsh conditions there and and so I think that this would be an excellent mission to do because I remember I said earlier on that one of the problems with motivating sending life detection missions to Mars is that you could easily have as a serial result and it’s fatal to explain to the general public why you spent you know hundreds of millions of dollars on estimates descending to Mars it to detect nothing even though that is extremely significant well if we do it as a jewel testing tiny protection as well as searching for life then I would suggest land well away from the Phoenix lander but the same Cyprus is biologically interesting and and actually drilled below the surface as well so we need a drill to drill to two meters and this is like the icebreaker Mars mission rich and Chris McKay suggests and which has her sadly never been proved but it’s a very interesting mission to journal and look for past life that meant big cryopreserve below the surface so we sent a mission to do that but he’s also rover like extra Mars and then this mission also would land well away from Phoenix so is not to be skewed by any contamination from Phoenix him like a few miles away I returned into the ice and we do all this interesting stuff about finding ponds below the surface and then were turtle over to it Phoenix and he reduce all its instruments that is got life detection instruments not just biochemistry or not just chemistry instruments and we would look at the Phoenix lander and examine unto itself and examine the habitats near it and see if we can find evidence of life there they didn’t find before and if it does and and especially if it if it resembles earth life and it is different and it didn’t find it before in the previous location that would be suggesting that that the Phoenix lander has contaminated mass and on the other hand if it doesn’t find it then that suggests that our civilization is working pretty well and it could actually go up and look closely attack see bits of the p.m. time to pick up some of the chunks that got broken off and look at them in examine nose and see if there’s any knife or nose as well and that would give an idea and then in that case you would expect to find something because it’s not completely sterilized let me give an idea of how viable that is on a lander after I’m so many years Halloween survives and that’s very interesting the rationalization as well so you’ll get very interesting science on tiny protection if we can total no result for this discovery for Martian life and so I think this would be able to be a high priority mission I think but I think we need and I think we need a high priority mission to search to test back piety protection I think searching flood in situ is on Mars is high priority I think this would be a way to combine the two it’s not the optimal place to search for life on Mars there are other places but it might be it might be we just don’t know these these droplets if this whole ice droplets are are there a nilton manner with this experiments think they may be almost everywhere on Mars if they are then and if they occur naturally not just as a result of the stuff being thrown off from the ground which seems reasonable enough I mean it’s probably not just feeling standing it makes these droplets if little droplets everywhere and as he said a little choppy it’s like a fast swimming pool for a microbe so we might find Martian microbes there and so so it tastes quite good quite an interesting one and I think it would be a good next mission no I think we don’t do multiple future missions such implied consent on Mars and this might be good follow-up from the former slander Paul for anyone else who is coming in on me on this who wants to start studying it like from Vincennes Russia and China they both interest and India maybe India of this Center and landed to the moon consent Atlanta to Mars and maybe even private space and I think private space should be interested in this and want to learn out about it not just for for biochemistry for the if there’s no chemistry could be of commercial I make some commercial value of whatever love is there whatever it is it’s something new we don’t know about and also for safety of the astronauts you can discover that Mars if you find Mars is safe not by standing astronauts there and see if they die coughing of something that is destroying their lungs oh you can do it by sending a mission to the ground surface which looks there and looks and see if there’s anything there that could be harmful to Mars astronauts I think the only ethical way myself is to send the instruments and not the humans I don’t even if you’ve got volunteers and then if you said you mr. Mars remember they can’t come back until they prove it is safe there’s no move you knew you could with the current very weak Qatar Space Treaty treaty then he’d probably be quite hard to actually stop a commercial space was sending us north to Mars if they really really want to do they because the treaty as it is stated just says that the government has to tell them to stop it doesn’t actually give them the pallister’s children or they just as the government has to warn other countries so if NASA felt is setting off for Mars then US government is required tell the other nations that this hostile is sending off to Mars and this is going to impact my experiments and the and legal doors who look at this very carefully and it doesn’t actually specify that the government has to stop them from doing that now the the legal case go back and forth and some people say that it actually does specify that but just hasn’t done that explicitly another say that it doesn’t and it’s a matter of comparing two clauses in the in the treaty I think the majority view is that it does require them to stop the ice melt filtering that but there’s minority view that it doesn’t and you made quite a big legal case if it ever comes to long as to which it actually is so that’s Laurel Montgomery I think it’s name of the lawyer who argues that the only requirement in outer space treaty is for the United States to notify say Elon Musk notify the other nations that he’ll mosque is paint sent most of us which is not required to stop him but most hospitals most noise we’d say it is but I’d like the way whether whether it’s permitted or not they certainly they will be permitted to come back again not if they it’s a potentially bringing up past life with them not without going through all our very strict and bulletproof environmental protection laws for which is not gonna be bypassed and if I’m the mask plantation advocates Michael goes on gung-ho through these public hearings and say we have to send us those to Mars Chris me to have a second planet but that’s some point to work this was not you’re not going to get Thor is saying oh yes yes your mind we’ve got to have a second tiny human beings so therefore forget all these laws it’s just some work like that look no it’s not like that and as I said it’s not fight argument anyway so and there’s just no way that that this is going to happen until we know what to last so we have to send we have to study Mars Institute with life detection instruments they I don’t see any other way around it it would just take too long returning samples because you don’t know where to look and you could be spending and trend here sending missions without another retains helps we here there and everywhere but as in situation is going to and moving yes look around wherever you like and and study in situations you could get all that thump and very very quickly forgot that’s not an orbit so even if someone recklessly wanted to send us those two so I think the private space should be behind this and there’s so many places where you can send private space I said this the moon and after the moon I think the I don’t think Mars is the most had to a place for humans and even even if I’m wrong about the comparison then Callisto is far better if we can send you instead because it’s protected from the ionizing radiation was inside Jupiter sphere it’s got loads of ice lots of organics you can go below the surface group multiple underwater leg for it it’s got lots of resources and then beyond I know it’s a long way to travel but it’s not so long if you if you’ve got faster propulsion and and then you’ve got but gravity assist which if you’ve also got we’re talking about years not decades and then if you’re talking and then this and certains tighten which is a wonderful place in embrace I think you need to look carefully at the pine tree protection is any native life but it’s extremely cold the question really is whether this native life the crew survival in the North habitat that seems unlikely or whether an earth-like would survive there in in the cryovolcanoes which proclaims because liquid water and but it’s a wonderful place for human beings because don’t need spacesuits the atmosphere there is one half times feel a bit more it’s dense than Earth life atmosphere and this is I come after Rachel eight bits it’s a higher pressure and this means he took used you are space root base level space for does is it contains the pressure of the Earth’s atmosphere and they a thought it’s not just that will contain of oxygen is great relieve the pressure you’re dying without the pressure and with Mars surface pressure with scuba gear you would die within seconds you what go unconscious within seconds because your your lungs are not able to take up any oxygen from the atmosphere even the air in your lungs wouldn’t work on loss if you put put on masks and then without a spacesuit then within a minute you’ll be unconscious you wouldn’t be able to use the oxygen in your lungs you can take a deep breath there if you take a deep breath in your lungs just going to explode it’s not it’s not a good idea to take a deep breath and try and hold it because the depressurization and the reason is because at the temperature of our lungs then the moisture that lines our lungs will immediately evaporated boils wash lining on long spoils most fur lining our tongues and our mouth spoils and the moisture on our high spoil but you wouldn’t actually experience very much of this you wouldn’t experience boiling lungs enough that not hit the gym just evaporating because both poles is much lower temperature a lot Princeton’s you can’t get a good cup of tea on the Everest because it was it reaches boiling point too soon so it’s the same on with your lungs on Mars it actually boils at well below blood temperature and so you wouldn’t be able take a single breath hold moisture we boil none of the oxygen can be absorbed and you just stay conscious for as long as your oxygen in your blood recently alone there’s no pain much oxygen applause it’s not plenty now Dunn’s but not much no blood so so the bass surface it’s no useful do you can’t beat that what’s really neat space suits but um but I’m the space which is keeping the pressure and without the pressure we can’t breathe and but on Titan then you already have this more than atmospheric pressure so you don’t need a spacesuit and you could just manage with scuba gear and it but this this just only scuba gear size reduces injuries you you’re using the same with doxygen asked been oxygen tank and you’d be able to walk about in surface of Titan the only problem is the extreme cold but insulate the installation works but better and cold the temperatures and they you want yours here’s something not much different from a standard scuba gear bright shirt with the it just really thicker but quite manageable well yeah I come a little but I think and I’m you just suddenly have to walk round be very flexible spacesuits of a rayon Realty they they they they’re just very stiff especially gloves they there is described because you’ve got the pressure difference of the entire atmosphere if we try and hold something your spacesuit glove then the it’s like have your fingers inside inside I’m hosepipe I got the hosepipe who trying to bend it it’s almost impossible to bend but on on the Titan’s surface it would have just one week loves but very very thick insulation we’d have just ordinary wetsuit Brita filters in your change your boots and you had it was in your other parts of your suit probably as well to keep you warm I’ve long long with all this insulation you’ll have no questions scuba gear you’ll have a helmet but not the pressurized tell me just just to just for the oxygen and you be able to walk around on the surface of Titan and and that’s a huge huge saving it also means that the gear you use is very easy to make you could you could actually yes no it’s no different looking you’d buy you know the water sports shop you’re diving shop it’s just everything and a bit thicker and some heating in your boots that’s what Titans were taught me is one of the best places for for surviving and then you and then you could have habitats which had just built a slight great big huge tents and you fill them with oxygen and they pressures the same inside and out which makes much much easier construction the winds there then the winds of grandeur much gentler than gentle space just gentle breezes no possibility of any damage from wind the grandest table you don’t have earthquakes there are very strong winds i’ma kill me to a so loving atmosphere with a big difference in the wind velocity so you could have floating turbines the gravity is much less is similar to the moon you could actually fly human being could live by trapping their wings in the Titan atmosphere it’s a really fun place and I mean it’s nowhere near as good as Earth because you but it’s but every but it’s better than almost anywhere else and Dave and the wind could be used for Polident generation so though there’s hardly any like there there’s plenty of power available in the wings in the upper atmosphere you have floating turbines you can float the turbine especially those very light conditions and the wind blowing to ends tethered of course and then the wind blowing through the through the cables and the main point to it which and it all the power that you need for your company and it did so long has just say for the native title of which we don’t know I don’t think we should not send humans to look to Europa we can send Callisto because crystal is doesn’t have any connection it may have it doesn’t want to insist but it’s so far below and the Commission is connected with the surface but it’s just covered with these crazy things and there’s no way there’s any connection between the surfaces kids it’s classified skeptically – just like the moon so we can certainly send humans to Crystal so I think this is the future that we have and then in we have humans on the moon and you could build spaceships on the moon moon is the ideal place proving spaceships the earth ISM is a stupid place to build spaceships because you must be spaceships on there the optical can’t get into orbit to the atmosphere and you have to have a huge huge amount of mass to get a fuel and tiny tiny bit of spaceship because its orbit if you same especially into orbit from the moon then one I’m only about half of its mass needs to be pure it’s far far easier to get so I think I think that our future maybe fifty years from now then all the spaceship factories will be on the moon fifty two hundred years from now they were making them on the moon that they just spotted I think everything you need to build a spaceship he’s on the move and so I think that’s where we’re gonna be building a sufficient I don’t think he’ll muscular people in spaceships on that in Luton Lee in the late 21st century and to give me a feel of a fact here on the moon and anyone else who is building spaceships so anyway some some fun ideas of the future and then and then eventually and then the lunar caves are amazing for humans they are absolutely huge they’re probably they’re at least that they look as if they might be hundred meters long they theoretically in the nuniq they could be up to several kilometres in diameter we know they’re up to tens of meters in diameter pretty much larger and this talks about degree of a cave that which could fill with with air and use as a first call name and that’s as big as as the biggest one since as big ones in science fiction you’ll have the entire city’s in there below the surface and then and then you can take you can take materials from asteroids I could Fergus towards into these habitats and then if you have these habitats then these habitats they can spin them for gravity very slowly and I think I think the various reasons are talked about in my book that I shall spin tolerance is not I don’t want to go into all that I spent towards is much higher but we pretty high of me to it we there’s enough material in just the asteroid belt alone to have habitats for a thousand times land area of Earth that’s including all the radiation persecuting they think radiation shielding that you need to protect people inside them and then new clothes have thin film mirrors which collect sunlight and these are practical might have to be on Pluto you can have you know just free-floating habitats hoping you’re on the Sun independently and hot air of course got lots of ice and stuff and you can build a night out to be on Pluto with just using large of larger mirrors to concentrate the sunlight I talked about that in my book respond got a section where I give I’ve got sites for all of this these are not just eccentric ideas these are I’ve got sites of this stuff in my books so you can go and have a read about it and think a lot I think get the lots of fun ideas and the loads loads of stuff we shouldn’t just be focus on Mars I don’t think we should surely chose the last Mars bars and some people think the penis our atmosphere has got a lot to offer as well and I know there’s lots of people who say oh that’s nonsense but I think if you like the Venus upper atmosphere depends on how troubled out you are or how much you like being on how much like wide-open vistas you like wide-open vistas it’s very attractive because you’re floating above the clouds and you see well I don’t like tossed from unmanned class tropical not pretty much a caved rather but I would love living up in the top of the clouds so for me the Venus idea is far attractive but there’s a possibility of life in the beans clouds as well anyway I talked about that in the in my book and you know if you knots about things so so yeah I meant by by sharing my book here it is so I touch Mars so as I say it’s free I’ll put the link in the URL description and so you can go ahead and read that and then mine I think got links to the moon to the moon articles below that and so I find out a lot more about all this stuff and then we’ve got my touch Mars Facebook group and the case from moon first my facebook group so I’ll give links to that as well there’s of course the virtual host ecology group if you’re interested in astrology on Facebook and that give a heads up for them it’s a good place to talk about anything stupid customer energy and that’s it that’s it hope you hope you enjoy this and us I’ll have now have a finally stop and if you’ve got this far then you must have enjoyed the Pastis talk and thank you for listening

One thought on “Can NASA really just redefine most of Mars to be like the Moon for planetary protection? – DRAFT

  1. Fascinating, especially your points about the potential habitability of alternatives to Mars, like Titan and the moon.

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